Welcome to the Painter Marketing Mastermind Podcast, the show created to help painting company owners build a thriving painting business that does well over 103 million in annual revenue. I’m your host, Brandon Pierpont, founder of Painter Marketing Pros and creator of the popular PCA Educational Series to grow marketing for painters. In each episode, I’ll be sharing proven tips, strategies and processes from leading experts in the industry on how they found success in their painting business. We will be interviewing owners of the most successful painting companies in North America and learning from their experiences.

In this series titled “Success Looks Different”, Shane Fast of Renew Painting will be discussing his surprising journey from ministry to painting, and the many lives he has impacted, lessons he’s learned, and counterintuitive approach he has taken along the way.  It is a 6-part series.

In episode 3, Shane will dive into his decision to professionalize and scale, and the action steps that allowed him to do so.

If you want to ask him questions related to anything in this podcast series, you can do so in our exclusive Painter Marketing Mastermind Podcast Forum on Facebook. Just search for “Painter Marketing Mastermind Podcast Forum” on Facebook and request to join the group, or type in the URL Facebook.com/groups/PainterMarketingMastermind. There you can ask them questions directly by tagging him with your question, so you can see how anything discussed here applies to your particular painting company.

What’s up man? Hey brother, good to see you again. Good to see you. We are back. Back in action. Uh, we have dove pretty deep into a lot of stuff, some emotional stuff, some mental stuff.

It is a mental game, uh, the game of business. We did establish that it is a game, so that’s good. Uh, and I think now we’re gonna get into some tactical moves. Yeah, absolutely. So we, you, you know, you’ve, you, you kind of went through the roller coaster that got you to the painting company. You fought it a little bit, you know, fought tooth and nail a little bit, but ultimately came to the conclusion, hey, this is the right move. It actually makes sense. It’s actually pretty logical based on my family tree, uh, and I think that I might, might be good at this, naturally prone to some of this stuff, this craftsmanship plus business.

Uh, and now you’ve decided, hey, I’m gonna double down, triple down on this thing. I’m gonna do it. I’m gonna do it well. I’m gonna take it seriously now I need to professionalize. Now I need to actually get my ducks in a row so I could scale this business and treat it like a true venture. What did you do? Yeah. Well, there’s a host of things. Um, and I just, I just kind of jotted down a list and we can just kinda, you know, just want to run it out.

And I was even trying to think of what’s the most important. And it, it might sound cliche for anybody that’s exposed to the PCA and some of those circles of that, they have professionalized companies. But, you know, I think job costing was probably the first, like, professionalization step. And honestly, it’s probably the easiest. Um, it’s, it’s very, it’s as simple as asking someone else to borrow a spreadsheet and start using it, you know, and so, I mean, that’s what all of us do. We borrow it from somebody else and we adapt it and make it our own, and I think, you know, I referenced yesterday.

Um, or see, not yet, the last time we, we talked, um, I referenced. Um, stepping away, what would I say 8 hours a week, no more than 4 hours at a time. We talked about that advice and having to make that that was. That was kind of the, yeah, that’s the rule that was the, you know, suggested to me, so I had to self-impose. And if I didn’t have job costing, I would only have feelings to feel like, hey, maybe that worked. But with job costing, I could see, we’re already job costing before that.

I could see, hey, this is actually really helpful and I can show you why. Um, and so, you know, job costing really tells a story and gives you data to then support. Your feelings or oppose your feelings. There’s times when we think, man, what happened on this job? They were so slow, we’re so behind, and then you actually run the numbers out and you think, oh, we’re actually in a great spot. We’re actually killing it. And there’s other times it’s the total opposite happens, and I think we’ve killed something, we get to the end of it and caused it.

And I’m like, holy crap, that sucked. What did we do wrong? Um, and that informs production and that informs sales. So that, that, that gives you, you know, was it a production problem? Was it a sales problem? Was it, was it, you know, sometimes there’s customers that are hard to, in challenging situations and hard to deal with. And so, you know, you can really start to diagnose that. So I think that job costing is a, a key data point. Otherwise, you’re, you’re kind of running through the ocean without a compass in a sense, you know.

Um, you’re just, just kind of going and hoping you get to a certain spot and, uh, and I think that’s how most people probably end up not profitable, doing a lot of revenue but not profitable, you know, um, and so, so that one’s the easiest low hanging fruit there is to me. Yeah, John, John Wooden had a quote, um. Don’t mistake activity for achievement. Or maybe never mistake activity for achievement. And so I think it’s easy to kind of get in the cycle of doing a bunch of stuff where we feel really busy.

We’re not gonna have projects and so the business is growing or must be grow maybe we don’t even know the revenue, right? Sometimes it’s that bad where you are not actually sure what your revenue is year to date or month to date. And so the, but the business is growing and so therefore we must be doing well. But it’s really not about the revenue. If we’re looking at it from a financial standpoint, it would really be what you keep, not what you make, um. And at the end of the day, if you’re looking at it from a life impact perspective, he want to impact a lot of lives through serving more clients, through hiring more people, you have to have the a strong financial base to be able to support that.

Yes, yeah, 100% agree, 100% agree. So what would be, you know, if somebody’s listening and I know job costing, if you’ve been to PCA events, if you’ve kind of listened to a lot of these podcasts or followed some coaches, job job costing is a pretty frequent topic, but let’s say someone’s listening and maybe this is their first time hearing it, or they just haven’t actually acted on it and they’ve heard it before. How could someone who’s listening to this start job costing? Yeah, well, I mean, we have spreadsheets, a ton of people have them.

Um, and I mean, literally, you’re just trying to take the labor you spent on a job, subtract out the materials, and, you know, well, that’s the revenue. So if the job was a $1000 job and I paid $123 in labor and $100 for materials, and there’s $700 left over. So that’s our gross profit, right? And then if you want to really Get one level, which, which our, our, our gross profit number is really big, and our revenue per hour numbers is pretty big to us, and that, that because we quote, you know, essentially we’ve got labor rates, but we’re basing it off of an hourly rate.

And so, you know, a square foot of a ceiling is derived from we want to get X number of dollars per hour for our labor to paint that ceiling, right? And um And so you can just take that left, whatever that $700 is left over, and, and then you take your, put your number of hours into it and you’ve got your revenue for an hour. So is it $50 is $60 is $70 you know, um, which of course depends on how many hours you actually spent on it. Um, and so we’re, we’re assuming, and me saying that, like it’s so simple.

I mean, for me, when I started doing it, it was me and 4 painters. And so it was a lot of work. It was, it was on my plate, you know. Um, and so I realized that’s a lot to keep up with and, and, and it’s hard to be on top of it consistently. Um, but there’s a, a huge impact if you are, um, if you can take the the time and commit to that. So I realized it’s work, you’ve got to be able to find that data.

You got to be able to know how many hours people are actually there and what their labor rates are, and some of those things, um, but it’s totally worth it. Yeah. Yeah, I think it’s important to note that there are spreadsheets available. Someone could, you know, if you, if you comment on the Facebook group, tag Shane, tag myself, you can get one of those spreadsheets, uh, and that’s kind of the starting point. But the end of the day, this is one of them, it’s one of the more basic, but also one of the most important aspects of getting your finances right and professionalizing your business is knowing your numbers.

Yeah, absolutely, absolutely. Now you sound like Chris Moore. The, uh, I mean, a lot of, a lot of this stuff, man, it’s, uh, it’s not rocket science, right? So, Jason Phillips, Brandon Lewis, me, you know, a lot of us are gonna say kind of the same things because at the end of the day, fundamentals work, you know, the fundamentals say the same, yeah, exact same things, you know, numbers, culture, yeah, absolutely. Everyone, and I digress kind of go on a soapbox for a second or whatever, but I’m in marketing.

You know, marketing, we naturally like innovative approaches, right? We, we’ve, you know, we’re working on some SMS stuff, we’re working on some AI appointment setting type stuff, some of the stuff that’s sort of sexier, but at the end of the day, it, it’s the fundamentals and I think we, I think so many people want to chase that hey, what, what’s the, the most innovative sexy way to get leads if you can just get leads at a reasonable cost per lead. You can you you can sell that lead the right way, you know, getting in touch with them immediately through a CRM, uh, having the right messaging, having a strong dialed in sales process, uh, delivering the proposal in the home, not emailing it afterwards, uh, having a objection handling process you can just.

Do these fundamentals having a what we call database reactivation basically reaching out to your past lists and having a proactive approach to repeat and referral business. You just do those fundamentals, right? You, you don’t have to know everything about AI. You don’t have to be on the cutting edge and you’ll be beating 99% of the other painters out there. Yeah, right, right, yeah, makes total sense. OK, so we have data, job costing, what, what’s number 2 here for us? Yeah, so I think another big one for us was systems and software, which kind of tags right into what you just said and You know, as a small company doing $43,000 a year, all of a sudden paying $3000 a year for software, like, um, I think we started off with a job or first or estimate rocket 10% of your revenue going to software right there.

So it feels like, well, would it be? 1 11%, 1%, but you’re at 375 and you’re paying $30 a month in my office 3 a year, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, no, no, no, no, sorry, yeah, yeah, yeah. I was like that’s I was like I was like I said something wrong because I know. Yeah, I got a funny story one time where I was like, yeah, I paid 5003 cents square foot for this house, and I was like, you mean $50? Oh yeah, that would make a lot more sense. I was so proud. I was like, yeah, not 50 anyway, so, um, yeah, so, you know.

Like you said, looking, there’s a sense in which you, you look professional, you are professional, right? Um, so there’s nothing, I mean, it was, it’s admirable for me to come in and handwrite a bid and to hand it somebody on a nice sheet of paper or to then type an email and send it to them. Um, that’s a step, you know, it’s much more advanced than taking a business card and turn on the back, right? So or just texting them something, I mean, you know, so there’s, there, there’s not a, it’s not to denigrate those things.

That’s, that’s where most of us start. But there’s something that is use the word sexy and men go, when I, you know, when we show, we use Paint scout now. And so when I show our proposal to homeowners, and the feedback we get is like, wow, that’s like really, that looks really impressive. You know, even people that don’t hire sometimes are like, wow, we’re, that proposal is awesome. It tells about your company, it tells, you know, and so, but those things aren’t free. And so I’ve had to, you know, I grew up um in a You know, just a, a middle class family.

Um, and I, I, I kind of watched my parents do well on some things and, and spend money on some things I thought were kind of wasteful for the money we didn’t have. And, um, and then do some things wisely, you know, and, and, and just kind of like picked up on that and learned from it. They also made us earn our own money and spend our own money at a young age. And so I’ve always been pretty frugal. And so the thought of like actually spending money on software was like, wow, I can do this myself.

I don’t need that, you know. And so, Actually investing in systems and software to where now we realized uh about a year and change ago when we were Somebody said, yeah, when you get to that million dollars plus mark a year in revenue, you’re not gonna be able to just have one software that does everything. You’re gonna have a stack. And I was like, Are you kidding me, you know. But by that point, I, I was like, OK, let’s build our stack. Let’s figure this out, you know, because I realized the value in investing in the software.

And so it is a mental hurdle to say, OK, if we spend this money. Are we gonna get it back, you know, and, and, and, and, and we do, we totally do, um, in, in droves with our time, you know, from the CRM to the estimating to the project management, you know, all like the whole nine, you know, we We get that money back through saving a ton of time, uh, looking much more professionalized so that when someone, we scheduled for a quote 24 hours before they’re getting a, a text, Hey, we’re confirming your appointment.

Here’s a video of what to expect on the quote. It’s a 45 2nd video of me talking, you know, none of that happens without paying for the software, you know, and, and that was a huge one that, that was a huge hurdle for me to get over initially spending that money. I’m glad you brought that up because if you actually think about it, so it’s $3000 it’s a lot of money, right, especially when you’re kind of early on, you think, man, that’s I could just keep that 3000, maybe that’ll cover my mortgage, right?

Why would I, why would I put it into this software? But if you actually think about it from a business perspective, if you look more professional. It’s $3000 a year. There is almost no way that you’re not gonna like 10X, 33X, 100 X plus your, you know, ROI on that investment. Like +11 landed project because it looked more professional or even just a higher ticket price being able to sell a higher profit margin just covers it. Yes, which again, to your point about selling, quoting on the spot, presenting on the spot, going through the objections right then, you don’t do that without software.

You know, you just don’t, you can’t present it to them in a way they can walk away with it and make, you know, and you can dialogue right then. Um, I think we sell, and I mean, I did this for a long time, a painter marketing we kind of sell speaking our own language, you know, so I, I would get on calls back when I was running the sales process and I might, I might pull up their, you know, their rankings on Google, and I’m gonna kind of talk about their SEO and I’m gonna talk about why it is what it is and And I’m going to start to get into jargon and technicality of at the end of the day, they don’t know what I’m talking about, they don’t care, right?

And, and so I started going on this path and I think I see a lot of contractors do that where they go and take the measurements, kind of, kind of, you know, talk technically about all the different things they’re going to do and why it matters. Homeowner doesn’t really care. And so if you’re not providing them stuff, if you’re not speaking in their language, if you’re not giving them. Uh, a packet that they can look at, read, get comfortable with your company, start to know I can trust you if they haven’t gotten some messaging before, like you send that 45 2nd video about the process.

Now I know what to expect. Now I know what you look like. Now when you walk in the door, you’re not a stranger to me anymore. If you don’t do that stuff in your head, you might be like, oh, I gave them all the information, they have everything. I don’t know why they went with Chuck. In their head, you, you were kind of, you were talking Chinese the whole time, and you threw out a number, but you, you weren’t really connecting with them in a way that was significant for them. Right.

Absolutely, yeah, yeah, I think, I mean, and that’s a whole, yeah, we could get on a whole, you know, rabbit trail sales 10 hour thing on this, man, sales, which is, which is honestly a huge part of, I mean that’s, that’s an, that’s an anchor, right, like that in production and operations, those are your three anchors, um. And so that’s, that’s, that has been another thing that for me, some, some, some kind of, you know, entrepreneurs in our space are, are start out as, as I love the craft and, and they, they might be a bit more toward being a a phenomen.

Project manager. So their first he might be hire might be a salesperson, and they go do the project management, you know, that is not me. Um, the only job that I could potentially have gotten besides someone I have now is a salesperson, you know, in terms of like what I could go after and be successful at. And, um, And so, uh, you know, that, that’s been something that I’m continually learning is I haven’t hire hired a full-time salesperson yet. I’ve trained some other people on our team to be able to fill in gaps when I’m out of town or when we just have too many leads.

But I’m still learning, there’s that, you know, Hannah said, I, I called our office manager, um. Before this call and, and answer the question that we’re gonna talk about. So, hey, give me your list. I’ve got my list. Give me yours. I’m curious. You know, and the first thing she said was systems, systems, you know, and so I would say my sales system is still lagging behind where it should be for the size company we are, partly because I can just do it instinctively. But that’s not teachable, that’s not trainable, you know, so, so, so in order to scale, you have to have systems that you can hand off.

So we have to have an SOP for project management so I can hire a project manager and teach them and unload that responsibility, right? Um, for example, so. You know, with software systems, they kind of go hand in hand. They’re not married to each other, but I guess they’re like first cousins or brothers or sisters or something. They’re, they’re pretty inseparable. So that’s, that’s an awesome point. And, and it is so easy to not build your company to be able to actually hire people to be able to make this stuff scalable because you know how to do it.

So you don’t necessarily need to document it or make it transferable, but if you want to scale your business, part of professionalizing it, even if you plan to continue doing it, what if, you know, Nick Slavic has a turkey truck or the turkey truck test, right? If you get hit by the turkey truck, does your business keep running or not? So even if you’re, hey, I love sales, you know, I only want to go to this, this certain revenue range within the company. I don’t necessarily want to hire another estimator.

Uh, so I’m gonna just continue to conduct it, so I don’t really have to record that. Well, then you get, you know, you, you get in a car accident, God forbid, or something that you get, you get some sort of sickness. Well, now, hopefully you did record it, hopefully you do have a process, especially if you have a family because you’re, you’re gonna need someone to plug in there. Right. Yeah, I mean, gosh, don’t you want to be able to go on vacation and not have a call like every hour, you know, or, you know, just to be able to actually detach and feel like.

My people are thriving because they’re equipped, you know, even if it’s, yeah, even if it’s not Hannah’s normal role is not a salesperson. There’s nothing in her disc profile, whatever, say send her on a sales call, you know, but what we’ve done is highly introverted. Yeah, I mean, so we taught her how to do it so that she can do it when I’m gone. She can, or when it’s just, you know, everybody’s pulled thin, she goes, hey, I can pick that one up. You know, and, um, and, and the main hurdle is really how technical is the painting side of it.

She has no industry experience at all. So as long as it’s not too technical and crazy, just a house wall, ceiling, and trim, it could be a 10,000 square foot or 1000, and she can do it, you know, and it’s because of the systems. And, and so I think that’s hugely. Another thing you just touched on was the org chart. So writing an org chart, which is honestly somewhat defeating as a small company because you’re in every spot. It’s a little depressing. You’re lucky, project manager, me, painter, me, right?

If you’re lucky you got a few other people on it, but you’re most of the roles, you know, and, um, but. But in doing that, and I would do it, and then I kind of, I wouldn’t do a whole lot with it, and I’d do it again, and it, it’s just just the writing of it every few months, for a little while. Kept my, kept me dreaming a little bit, you know. Um, not that I had a, I didn’t have a way to hire somebody right away.

I knew we didn’t have the revenue to support it. You know, you got, and when you write the org chart, when you’re $300 to $13,000 you’re not, like you said, you’re pretty much everything, you know, but you’ve got a couple of extra painters. And so then you start to dream a little bit about, you know, well, what things? Do I not really love doing and I’m probably not the best at doing. I can hand those off and what’s the lowest, you know, how do I actually get there income-wise?

What’s the threshold to be able to hire an office, you know, maybe it’s an office assistant for 20 hours a week, you know, whatever the first step is, which is kind of our first. And I, Hannah, one thing she mentioned, she said, you might not wanna, you know, say this, but, um, but it was just, you know, it’s not, it’s not arrogant because I have said, uh, on the last couple episodes that I had a ton to learn about leadership failures and everything, you know, and I feel like I’m a different leader now than I used to be.

And she said, you know, you, you entrust other people to do their role. You actually entrust them and empower them to do their role, and that’s, that’s huge. And so it’s not just having an org chart, and then once you start to fill it with people, just, you know, still micromanaging all that, I think it’s, can our people fly, you know, my, my, my role is not to, to be a babysitter, to be a micromanager. I wanna, I wanna empower them to go and to, to really take off because they win, I win, we win together, you know, it’s a, it’s a win all around.

Uh, and I think that, I think there are a lot of us who start the business that have a hard time with that because we’re used to being that person, and we’re used to being the, the people that are on the Google reviews saying, oh yeah, Shane showed up my house and did a great job. My name hasn’t been on a Google review. In like 2 years, you know, but I love seeing, you know, Pedro Vivi, Ryan, Hannah, Nate, you know, I mean, you’re seeing all these other people named and celebrated, and it’s so fun, you know, you’re, you’re, we’re actually real now.

It feels like, hey, we’re a real company, you know. And I think, so I think writing that or chart out, being OK with being in multiple spots, I’m still in multiple spots, you know, we’re, our trajectory now is somewhere between 1.5 and 2 this year. It kind of depends on how, you know, the rest of the year goes. So we’re still not a massive company by any stretch of the imagination. So I’m still filling in a couple of spots. And, and as I developed some other people, we’re kind of sharing some of those together and You know, it’s a growth process, but writing that out gives clarity to your team as well, gives it clarity to you about what you’re looking for, what you’re dreaming about, and how to get there, and somewhat informs that roadmap, and then it gives clarity to your team too about, hey, here’s where I want you to go, and here’s where I want you to move into and and to thrive.

Yeah, for sure, that’s been, that’s been a big thing for us. Yeah, the work chart’s huge because it does essentially create the roadmap for you, for your business, you know, as you scale, it’s so easy to not even necessarily differentiate the roles because you just, you go and you, you know, you deliver the proposal and then hopefully you, you follow up and hopefully you get the project. When you get the project, you’re gonna make sure it goes according to plan and kind of monitor the painter. OK, well, now you’re doing the project management role, but in your mind, it might not even be differentiated.

You’re just kind of running everything. And if you don’t clearly separate that and not, you know, have the org chart, but then the responsibilities listed down to the org chart and what you would actually, uh, compensate someone in that role and whether there would be a commission portion or not, uh, and, and so I like, at what revenue range would you be comfortable hiring somebody and if you’re painting, you know, listing yourself as a painter, how much would you pay someone to replace yourself? So now you’re actually building that into your profit margin.

And it goes back to again knowing your numbers job costing, you’re not free. And that’s another mistake so many owners make when they’re small, is they go paint and then they say their profit margin, but they’re not, they’re not counting themselves as a painter that they need to pay. So now when you replace yourself, your profit margins all of a sudden you got to take a dive. Yeah, that is a good point. On job costing, you absolutely have to account for yourself if you’re on site. Either, um, if you’re if you’re acting as a project manager, you have to step in and do touch-ups or help clean up or something.

Those are hours. If you’re, if you’re under operator and you’re jumping in with a team of 3 and you’re working as a painter and a project manager on that site, then your painting hours absolutely are a part of that, you know, and that, and that is, that is too often missed. And if you’re gonna, if you’re doing the sales and if there’s gonna be a commission piece then you got, OK, when I’m not doing this anymore, then we’re gonna have to pay commission. Yeah, and believe me, I thought about that one.

I like I thought I’d be great to hire sales. I make as much money at our current size as I do, you know, but that’s not, I mean, that’s not gonna keep. Sometimes you take a step back to the, I mean sometimes as you scale, you do start to make less money temporarily. That’s right. Some explained this to a friend in real estate explained to me as a check mark, so you know, go down a little bit to go up a lot higher, you know, and there’s all different analogies and visualizations for that, but yeah absolutely and I, and I would say that’s another thing in scaling that.

I’ve had to really embrace and celebrate is, is those kind of down temporarily downward movements where, like, you know, usually you feel in terms of revenue, uh, the first time we got an office space, for example. I had no clue how invigorating that was gonna be for our team to have a 9×9 office where 3 of us share it most of this time. But it was, it was our own space all of a sudden, you know, we weren’t hopping around coffee shops and Paneras and libraries and whatever it was, you know, and so, but it was an immediate like financial cost that had huge dividends, huge dividends.

So there’s always gonna be this little, where can I invest in our team, you know, where can I do something small and reasonable, and it’s gonna pay a lot of dividends, and everybody knows their own team pretty well. You can find those different spots. Yeah, I like that check mark analogy. I’ve not heard of that before. Yeah, I thought it was really cool. I’m so visual. It’s like I can see that. So I literally will think about that in certain moments like, OK, this is what this decision, we just hired a second project manager.

We’re a little, we’re right on that cusp, but we’re doing a little bit early, but it’s, you know, it’s intentional. And because of the vision where I see us going, and, and I know in the short run, it’s like I could afford, I could have gotten away with not having another van. I could have gotten away with not having another salary for this, you know. But to your point earlier about the uh org chart and, and just I mean, uh, everybody’s wired differently. I I, I don’t think multitasking exists, period.

Um, you know, I, I just, you know, it started, it’s a computer term to start with. That’s where it originated, right? So it’s not even meant for humans. And, and so today I’ve done, I’ve started two jobs, one with a W-13, 1 with the sub. I’ve um ordered paint, I have So the thing I did besides like working out and getting my kids off to school, um, so you’re, you know, you start to you start off as a parent taking the puppy out to pee and poop, right?

Like you start off as a parent and, um, and then you move into work mode and what was it? I had to do some set some, oh, I’ve been working on quotes, so there’s that part, building calls about other jobs, you know, because we’re at a size where I’ve still got to manage some of our projects. I’ve got a, a 22 year old, almost 23, who’s doing great. But he’s only been in project management since January, only been in the industry since August, so I can’t dump $1.8 million on him and say, go manage it, you know, that’s crazy.

And so we’re trying to keep him in a certain threshold. He and I managed some together and, and he has a lot on his own, some together and then some I might just take depending on, you know, we make it based on different, different factors. But my gosh, it’s gonna be so nice to have this other project manager on because that, that in 2 months will take me largely out of that role entirely. And because, I mean, Brand, I kid you not, I spent the 10 minutes before we got on this podcast laying down on the outdoor couch with my eyes closed just listening to the birds because my head was so cluttered.

And I’m just so thankful that that’s not my every day anymore. I mean, that’s hard. So I remember being in that spot every day where you’re trying to juggle all those different things and it’s really hard. Really hard, um, so hard to get your brain just to stop and just pause and kinda of, let me just back up and think and dream a little bit, you know. And, um, and so, so that’s again, that’s another argument for starting to fill that org chart out, you know, take a little risk financially maybe to help yourself out too.

Yeah, as the, as the leader of the company, being the visionary is really the most important thing you can do, being the visionary and being the leader of the organization. And so the Like you laying on the couch, I mean, I can, it can, it can almost feel negligent sometimes. Like if, like we’ll have strategy sessions. So we have a director of operations, we have a technical director and they’re, they’re both, I work pretty closely with them and we’ll have these 4 hour meetings where all we’re doing is.

Is strategizing about the future of painter marketing pros and kind of the vision and and what can we transform into how can we become, become the best marketing agency in the world, you know, things of which could seem kind of like, well, why aren’t you guys just driving forward on the, on the tasks that you have right now? But it’s the most important thing you can do is think about your organization from a top level and actually carve that time aside. If you’re, if you’re just running all the different positions.

You’ll never get there. And there was a uh There’s, there’s a mentor of mine who’s just wildly successful. Um, he’s this entrepreneur in France. He knows Emmanuel Macron, like, like the guy is just like ultra has his private jet and he actually, I mean, he’s, it’s pretty wild. He, he tried to get like, He was almost assassinated by like the Taliban because he’s this he’s from Israel originally he’s like ultra successful entrepreneur, so it would have been this huge PR thing if they had been able so just like a wild guy, hugely successful, and he took a lot of risks.

And so I didn’t really know what that, what do you mean taking risks, um, and so I actually went and shadowed him. He has his own like private family, private equity office in Paris, and I went shadowed him for a week. And sat down and had lunch with a guy, a lunch with the guy, you know, a guy like that. I mean, that’s priceless. I talked to him. I was like, what do you mean risk? Like your team’s been saying you’re, you, you’re willing to take risks.

You’ve said you’re willing to take risks. I don’t really understand what you’re saying. And so an example he gave me is that, OK, if you’re growing a company and You would maybe be in a financial position to let’s say, hire a salesperson next year. He’s gonna hire that person now. And so that’s what that that like you said, taking a little bit of financial risk, he, he will see the vision of where he wants to take the company, and then he will pull those actions forward like a year plus, and he’ll go ahead and make the investment now betting that he’ll go ahead and ramp up quickly enough to make that make sense.

And that and that’s how he essentially has compressed time. Mm, no, I love that. I, I think that’s real and, and it’s very logical, you know, can we always do it? No, there’s, there are realities and numbers, right? But I mean, you want to be caught, it depends on your responsibilities too, right? Like if you, if, if you’re putting food on the, on the table for your kids, you might want to factor then if you have a mortgage, you might want to factor that in. If you’re younger, or if you’ve already got your necessities kind of met, maybe we take some moonshots.

Yeah, or if it’s, oh, I might make, let’s just use really round numbers, say, well, I can make 100 this year, or if I take this risk, I might make 70. Can I live on the 1003, you know, and, and, and yield the 30 for this year to make another 80 next year or whatever to go from 100 212, 24, you know, whatever it is, right. And, and so, yeah, that’s, that’s, that’s typically how, you know, thankfully we’re in a place now where I feel as if, OK, our needs as a family are gonna be covered, um, you know, we’ve been blessed to kind of the live-in flips of a couple of houses.

We’re in a great equity spot on this one now because that, you know, so we’ve, you know, our bills might, might be lower than expected, maybe we got 2500 kids, so we still have a lot of bills. It’s very expensive, man. Man, in college in 23 years, it’s gonna get interesting. Easy for you, right? Easy street, put them all through college. Gosh, no, just come work for us. Don’t go to college, just go. That’s right. Oh man, um. Where, uh, yeah, so, so, yeah, to say, hey, can we, you know, what is What is reasonable for our family, what takes care of our family.

And maybe for a season, you know, how, how lean can that be to hire that PM, to hire the salesperson? To your point, our goal is to hire a salesperson in the, the, the second half of this year, probably again, a few $21,21 before we should, or before we need to. But I, I just look at it as buying my time back to get into that dreaming space. You know, like you said, that visionary, kind of creative, entrepreneurial side of what, what can we go after next and, you know, where do we need to kind of grow and actually pull back and have the space to do that.

Versus being if I start doing, you know, 803 quotes a week, that’s not gonna happen, you know, I’m not gonna have space, so I can’t be a full-time salesperson and do the other. And there have been a lot of studies of ultra successful people, you know, people who have created a lot of wealth versus other people what are kind of the principles that they live by that are different, and one of the primary principles is what you just said buying back your time. So I, I don’t actually think personally I’ve been good enough about that.

Like, what am I cleaning the house? Am I, am I doing something that I should have outsourced a long time ago because I could be doing something else that, that ultimately is going to drive a lot more revenue? And I think the, you know, this will be applied sometimes to people who have like a W-280 position, and I don’t think it necessarily works. In that example, because if you have a set number of hours or or your salary for the year, you say, well, I, I make $280 a year and if I divide that by the number of hours I work, so therefore I shouldn’t mow the lawn.

But if your income is fixed and, and you mowing the lawn or not mowing the lawn doesn’t change your income, to me it’s like maybe you should mow the lawn. It depends on your expense and what you want to do with your life. But as an entrepreneur, as a business owner, you shouldn’t mow the lawn because you should be thinking you should be, you should be being a visionary for your business because you’ll get a lot more money. Yes. Yeah. The only, the only caveat I’ve found to any of that, and I don’t, I have not mowed my lawn, but like 280 times since we’ve been here.

Um, yeah, just because of that exact reason, I wanted to, I said, hey, this is a really good deal on cutting grass. I can either go buy a riding mower or whatever, or I could just pay this person and go get it and build a business, you know, which is what I chose to do, which now when I was in ministry, I would have never done. I always cut my own grass. The yard was a lot smaller. That helped a lot. Uh, but it was good to see something finished, you know, so sometimes as entrepreneurs, we, we might feel like we don’t actually see anything finished, you know.

So for some people that can check that box. There’s many, many other ways to get to that. Um, you know, for other people, you know, cutting the lawn is they love it, you know, so it’s, I would say there’s some things that I still do that you can look at and say, why do you do that? But I, I just get so much joy in it, you know, every now and then I’ll wash a car, it, it probably doesn’t make any sense for me to wash a car.

You can go drive through one for 18 bucks. Now, or whatever it is, you know, but I just, it reminds me of like my grandfather teaching me that, you know, it’s, it’s, it’s fun every once in a while, not like doing it because you want to do it, not doing it because you’re unwilling to pay the $18. That’s exactly right. That’s exactly right, you know, and so where are those kind of, you know, everybody has those unique pockets, but it’s, yeah, it’s being willing to buy back your time where it makes the most sense to buy it back.

I think that’s huge, you know. Yeah, yeah, the, um, I think I’m gonna shoot uh. I think I’m gonna shoot our next podcast with Russell Peach, a friend of mine runs Peach Painting, highly suc successful painting business in Tampa, and he actually has, um, I think he has a barber come to his shop and, and like cut his hair in the shop so he doesn’t have to, to spend the time. You know, going to the barbershop, which for him, he, he likes that. But it’s, it’s an example of a lot of people might kind of balk at that or, or like, why don’t you just go to the barbershop, but he’s running a 7 to $8 million dollar company.

So maybe, you know, the, the, maybe going to the barbershop, waiting in the line, that probably actually doesn’t make any financial sense for him. Yeah, fair point. I love it. Plus it’s just a boss. I’ve never done it, but that’s just I know that’s what I was thinking just awesome. It’s just awesome. Exactly. Who cares about the, the cost savings or, or, you know, buying the time, it’s just a cool thing. Oh, that’s funny. Uh, OK, so we have Job costing, step one, you know, knowing, knowing your numbers and your gross profit margin, we have systems and software, so that, yeah, you have to use the software kind of go hand in hand, sister, brother, cousins, whatever it is, uh, having systems, uh, and then the software is actually gonna make that scalable and repeatable and and something that’s not overly burdensome.

And then an org chart, so filling out all the positions, giving us a roadmap, even if it’s just us doing everything right now, at least now we got it on paper, we know the jobs that are being done ultimately kind of where we need to get to financially to maybe start outsourcing and have a plan. What’s next? Well, if you’re gonna have an org chart and you want to build it, you gotta hire people, you know, so I think that’s a That’s an extremely important part, and, and I think the biggest lesson that I’ve learned with that is, yeah, I’m trying to remember the cliche, higher slow and fire fast, I think.

And um but it’s really true, you know, and I am Not anymore, but for a long time was just notorious for just, I’ll, we’ll figure it out. We’re gonna make this work. We’re gonna figure this out with this person. We’re gonna make it work, you know, and you keep saying that over and over and over. Until you finally realize this just isn’t gonna work. Yeah. But yeah, we keep trying, you know, and so it’s, it’s having good systems, so a good firm process for people to to step through and in a process for them to go through.

And I’m a, you know, I realize that. There’s a tension between, we really want people, so we have to make it easy. But if it’s too easy, then are those the kind of people we want, you know, so we have something in between, you know, to where they have to take a couple steps to, to kind of get through. And it’s amazing how people self select out so, so fast, so fast, you know, you can’t, just can’t, I think our, I don’t know if we have a post-op right now because we’re not actually trying to hire for a painter, but We used to, I guess it was, um, Indeed.

And so they, they message on Indeed and it bounced back and say, hey, thanks for, you know, messaging, like, click here to fill out the application, or maybe it was an even softer first landing. I can’t remember exactly what it was at this point. We just, we calibrated a year ago, we ran it for a number of months. We hired, we need to hire and we pause it. So we haven’t, you know, done that in a while. But It, it was amazing he just wouldn’t do the first small step.

The drop off is, oh man, now we, we yielded a little bit to this generation and culture and said, OK, we’ll follow up with you via text twice. We’re not gonna do it more than that, you know, hey, did you get, you know, did you get a chance to fill the application? What we learned in that was a lot of people don’t see their emails, so that that text got a lot more response than an email. But if you have to, if you’re in that text more than twice, then do you want that person, you know, and, and so, so I think creating a um Uh, as a structure, a flow, uh, a progression, I guess is the best word of hiring, you know, somebody has to walk through this progression to get to be a part of your team.

It’s gonna be, you have to do some level of that to protect who you are, for sure, you know, to make sure you’re hiring who you want to hire. And when you make a mistake, I remember last year, we thought we knocked it out of the park on this guy. You know, young kid, 20 years old, everything just seemed right, his assessments are right. Everything looked great, his interview was great, and he starts working in two days our team’s like, What, like, yeah, I can’t remember all the examples, but they were just, there was, there was not a lot of um praise for him, for lack of a better word, you know, so our project manager talked to him.

Here’s a couple of things that we need you to work on right away. Two days later, she said, Can I please just fire this guy? Like, that’s great. I don’t have to come do it. Go ahead to get a text later that day says player eliminated like what? And she’s like, fired him, Shane. That’s what I’m talking. Like, oh, that’s pretty weird. Well, you’re eliminated. There’s a game. There you go. Yeah, but he, we don’t, we don’t talk that flippantly about people’s careers, obviously. But this, this guy, you know, it, it kind of fit the joke fit in that situation because it was like 2 days I gotta assume it wasn’t going well.

Oh man, he was not at all, you know, it’s just, so that’s another thing to, to be willing to say. I just had to do it with, I was so excited about this role we created. To, to manage our relationships with a couple key uh renovation companies in our area that we do a lot of work for, and those projects are just such they’re way harder to navigate than a homeowner. And so I thought, I’m gonna hire somebody to quote those and produce those, and that’s all he’s gonna do.

And I was super excited about this person we hired. Well, we, you know, 803, again, 4 or 5 days into it, Hannah and I turned each other like, what did we miss? Yeah, how do we screw this up, you know, and so we had to autopsy our process and realize, oh, here’s where we really screwed it up and let’s not do that again. Um, you know, but we also had to be willing to admit, man, we failed on that one, and I don’t know if we fell forward. We just failed.

And so to be willing to admit that failure and just say, OK, we gotta let him go. Let’s move on to the next thing and figure it out, you know. I think they’re very good at interviewing. I feel like they’re, they’re like professional interviewers, probably because they’re so poor at their job, they get a lot of, a lot of practice interviewing. Man, I mean, you know, and it’s, and if you, you know, shame on us we’re interviewing somebody that has the sales skills. I mean, he just sold us, you know, and so, you know, some way it’s like shame on us for being swooned or whatever the word is, but I, uh, you know, I, I, yeah, I think that’s the developing a system that works for you that’s not too labor intensive as a small company, you can only be so labor intensive and you only give so much time to it.

And so you got to find that right balance and then being willing to say, man, screw that one up and letting the person go, you know, um, most states have a certain limit or threshold of where if you don’t pay them over a certain amount, you don’t have to, and they file unemployment, they’re not, it’s not going to you, it’s going to the previous employer. And, and so we, we actually studied that pretty quick too. Yeah, yeah, you do need to know the that kind of gives us like, OK, they got about a month before we really see, you know, so yeah.

Yeah, I love it. Yeah, for us, we’ll, uh, like for an account manager position or something like that, we’ll, we’ll basically have a training program and then kind of like a like a mock the mock doing the role. I find, and as much as possible we actually do that in the interview process. It’s like we hired a web developer, we took one of our more challenging websites, basically gave the home page and said, hey, build it, um, and you have 24 hours to build this. And so just, just whatever software just get us this page and it’s got to be identical.

And, and so many people come through and say, well, I, I, I need a sandbox which is like a web development, um, area. If you, if you ask that, if you ask any kind of thing, then you’re not the right person. And then someone came through, didn’t ask any questions, said, OK, great, got it, returned it 12 hours later it was perfect. That person’s been a phenomenal web developer for us. So the more you can kind of figure out what the job is and then just have them do the job in the interview process and then.

Vet them in a way, once, once they’re kind of like hired and, and you’re training and you’re you’re onboarding them, vet them in a way where if they mess up or they’re not the right person, you don’t sit there and have them in front of a client, or have them, you know, creating actual damage for your company, the better. Yeah, I love that man. That’s, I love, that’s awesome. That that’s a really cool hack you found there to discern that. Yeah, I mean, because we, we hire pretty specialized positions, you know, we have a lot of departments and usually what people are doing is pretty specialized.

So it’s just like if they can do the, if they can do their job before you hire them to do their job, just see if they can do the job, you know, but some of this stuff, cultural, cultural fit, you know, attitude, how hungry they are, you can get sold on that. And then realized that that that was not accurate. Your assessment of them was inaccurate. Yeah, yeah, I, you’re absolutely right. So, yeah, linking that interview process for your key positions, I think it’s really important. Group interviews are really important, ride alongs are really important, you know, and those are all things that we shifted, boom, all right, we, we, we, we failed here.

What can we learn from it? Let’s change the process, you know. And so, yeah, absolutely. You know, another thing that I think is underrated, um. Is, is creating space for thinking and dreaming and planning, you know, and you referred to it earlier. So I, it’s one thing that’s helped to scale is, is pulling back, you know, pulling back from some of the day to day at, you know, not all the time, but at different intervals and different key moments. Sometimes that might look like a 4 hour block, sometimes it’s just a rhythm every day.

But finding some way to, to step back and, you know, it’s almost like you get on the balcony a little bit, you know, get on the balcony and kind of see your company a little bit, uh, versus if you’re in, if you’re right on the stage, you’re just, you’re looking literally right around, you can’t tell what everything’s going on if you pull back to the balcony, you kind of see all the players, all the dynamics and those things, so. For sure, I think you’re what you had talked about with the vacations, you know, vacation, unplugging, recharging, I always find when I step back, take some time away, like fully away.

When I come back, I usually am not only re-energized, but I have some ideas I didn’t have before. And usually those ideas, some of them are pretty good. And you don’t get them when you’re just kind of in that cycle. Yeah, that’s absolutely true. And then some of the ideas, you know, my team’s like that’s a really stupid idea that, you know what that is actually really, really stupid idea, but, uh, that, you know, you just kind of come up with a whole lot of ideas and some of them won’t be great and that’s good.

Yeah, OK, so we have job costing systems and software, or chart, hiring people, creating space. Are we missing any of, any of the primary steps you took to professionalizing? Coaching and networking was huge, you know, and we touched on already that’s why I didn’t really say yeah, but yeah, I think developing that professional network, people that are And specifically, it’s it’s people that are where you want to head. Um, I think those are, those are great, and people that are in the same spot as you. And eventually, you know, you can kind of give back to people that were, hey, we were at 500 a couple of years ago or whatever, you know, and I remember having to do everything myself and da da da.

Um, but initially it was who’s kind of running alongside us with a similar vision and passion, and who’s ahead of us that has that similar vision and passion and what can I learn from them, you know. And, and we’re still doing that. We still do that on, on a regular basis. And, uh, it’s just like anything. I mean, painting industry is no different. You’ve got people that are only after it for the money, or like, I just want to build something and never work, work again a day in my life, you know?

And that’s not my ambition, that’s not my drive. And that’s fine for them. There’s no judgment there. It’s just, I’m, I’m probably not going to learn as much from that person doesn’t share my same kind of, kind of vision, and And value sets for the company, as from somebody who does, you know, so it’s finding those people that do and really learning from them. And then, yeah, being willing to, and this goes to spending money again, being willing to pay for coaching, or being willing to pay for market, whatever it is, you know, you’ve got like, being willing to spend, so it’s coaching, marketing, whatever those things are, trusting that, man, what I get back from this is gonna be more than, than what I put into it.

Yeah, abundance mindset is very huge. How, how you think dictates your outcome. Right, absolutely. I love that, yeah, the coaching and networking. It’s huge. There’s a, uh, there’s a marketing mastermind group that I’m a part of, and one of the things they preach is look for, look for like the biggest or most successful player in your space, you know, so, so for, for you, for the painting, you, you know, you want someone successful who also had the same values, you know, maybe it wasn’t just about the money or not being a part of the company, uh, but someone who’s who’s kind of killing it, right?

Um. Which there are quite a few in the painting space to get get some pretty big, big players that come to the PCA and stuff like that, um, and then essentially imitating what they’re doing, right? Learning from them, one of the phenomenal things about the painting industry is you go to these events like the PCA and people are so generous with their time, you can go out, you can call them, you can oftentimes go shadow them at the office. I mean, nobody’s hiding their secrets. Nobody’s like, oh, I, you know, I figured it all up, but I’m not gonna tell you people are extremely generous.

And, and none of this stuff like we talked about earlier, it, it’s the fundamentals. It’s not rocket science. So kind of, um, monkey see, mucky do, right? They’re, they’re killing it. And you’re trying to figure out how to kill it. So why don’t you go ask them what they are doing and then do the same thing. But it’s super simple, but it, it’s, it’s not done that often and it is hard. It’s simple, but it’s hard. Like it, it is gonna be hard to go, to go, you get the information, but then you have to implement.

It’s hard work. That’s that’s, yeah, you know, it’s funny. I was gonna say that that’s that that is. That is a huge key is you grab the information and you’ve got to, and this is where I, I don’t think I was really successful. Pulling away and how do we actually implement this, you know, let’s pull, let me pull back and take what this, this resources person has just sent me and actually apply it to our business, you know, let me, how can I step away? And, and it is harder at, at a lower revenue when you’re wearing more hats, you know.

Uh, but I wish I’d have done it more. If I’d have done it more, then I would have, you know, we would accelerate, I think even faster. Um. You know, not grudging where we are. I’m very, very, very encouraged, but I, I do think it would, like you said, tapped into more of those gifts. Let me give myself space to really think and dream versus just like, I’ll pull back just enough to retool this thing just a little bit where we go a little bit better, you know, um, it’s almost like sometimes you gotta rebuild the engine, you know, and then you’re gonna go back to do that.

So there’s um. A lot of people probably know Robert Kiyosaki, wrote Rich Dad Poor Dad, and then there’s a, a podcaster I follow, Myron Golden, who’s very successful and, and he kind of talks about the four quadrants in a different way, but Robert Kiyosaki has the, uh, you’re an employee. Uh, you are self-employed, so that would be, you know, like a, a doctor, oftentimes dentist, veterinary, a lot of them lawyers, a lot of them are self-employed. Uh, you are a business owner or you’re an investor. Robert Kiyosaki talks about a business owner, pretty strict definition.

I’m not one yet, uh, per this definition. You have to be able to walk away from your business for a year. Come back and it is at the same level or better than when you left it. Now you’re a business owner, so that’s a high definition, um, and then Myron Golden. Similarly, he talked about, you know, your employee working for someone else, um, you own a job being a self-employed, so you don’t really own a business if you’re a practitioner and you trade time for money, you own a job, uh, which is where a lot of painting company owners are.

If you’re a solo solo operator, you own a job, you’re either painting and getting money or you’re not. Uh, he talks about a, a business owner is someone who owns a system, which I, I think is a phenomenal way of looking at it. And if you think about the Robert Kiyosaki definition, if you truly own a system that can run apart from you, you own a process, then you can leave, you can walk away, and the system should be able to run itself. So business owner being someone that owns a system and then an investor, you know, similarly investing into other companies, but I think this idea, hey, you, you need to own a system.

It is so key and it goes back to what you talked about with the systems and software this thing should be self sufficient and so that’s the goal I’m working toward and that’s the goal I think any. Any business owner who, who wants to be able to scale, who wants to potentially have the option of exiting, who wants to have the option of maybe passing it off to to child or whatever they want to do, it’s just gives you a tremendous amount of optionality if you build this thing so it doesn’t need you. Right.

Yeah, even if your goal is to, I mean, that’s my goal. It’s not that I don’t necessarily want to be a part of it. It’s, it’s, it’s like you said, the opportunity. Then exists to say, hey, we have a system, and there’s 3 large metro areas within the first one is 1 hour and a half, the other two are like 1 hour. Maybe we could plop it down there, you know, and, and, and it’s, you know, can we, can we actually develop the system, you know, to if, if we say, hey, we believe our system works and we’re able to impact people and change lives, and then why wouldn’t we do more of that, you know?

And, and so, yeah, I think, I, I think you’re absolutely right. That’s what all of us should aspire to for whatever reason we aspire to it, it, it’s only good, you know. Yeah, I went to a workshop from Alex Hermosi. I’ve talked about him a lot, like him a lot. He has a, a workshop out in Las Vegas that he runs a few times a month, um, through his company Acquisition. com, and they, they teach business, um, business fundamentals, and, and they invest in companies or a private equity firm, but he talked about.

How you want to build a company to sell, and it doesn’t matter whether you want to sell that company or not, because if you want to sell it, it gives the optionality of selling it. If, if, and, and one of the biggest determiners of whether you can sell the company or not is how needed you are, right? If you’re super needed, then, then you can’t, no one else can buy it, and if they do buy it, they’re buying a job. And so that’s less attractive. The multiple is not gonna be as good.

So if you build a company to sell, it gives you the optionality of selling it. It’s also just a much better, more enjoyable, more profitable company to own. So I think this idea of, hey, let’s build something that can be sellable that can run without me, doesn’t really matter. A lot of people, I think, get turned off by that because they say, well, I don’t want to sell the company. It doesn’t matter. Wouldn’t you love to have a company that that is just nice to have? Yeah, absolutely.

And and it comes back to this, these steps of professionalization. Well, if, if that’s the case, I mean, maybe every owner’s, you know, other owners are the best thing since sliced bread. I, I’m not. So the more I can empower my people to be great at what they do and they rise up in their roles, I, I actually really trust others to, to be better managers. Then I’m not a very good manager. It’s not one of my gifts, you know. So if I can hire, you know, so how can we, as we grow, like you said, that self-sufficient.

System that itself, you know, propelling whatever the word, I can’t find the right words, but, you know, it’s kind of running on its own. It’s like an independent entity. Yeah, I mean, it’s got to be better than me having to be in every single like nook and cranny. Jeez, not just, not just for my Santi, but for Sandy, everybody that works with me, you know. But we’re so we we’re oftentimes so egotistical as entrepreneurs though. Like, oh, we, we can do it better than everyone else. That’s why we went out and did it ourselves.

But then you realize actually when you hire the right people, I mean, I’ve brought people on board for certain positions and I’m like, oh, maybe they’ll do it near as well as I did it. And then my jaw just hits the hits the floor and I’m just humbled. Wow, I was not as good at that position as I thought that I was. And it and it wasn’t the only thing you were doing, right? So if you, if you let somebody laser focus on something, yeah. In theory, they, I mean, yeah, I want to hire people that are, I absolutely want to hire people that are better than me, you know, at what they’re doing 100%.

Yeah, I love it. But then sometimes, and I think it’s important to note this as well, sometimes there might be a position where, let’s say you’re phenomenal at sales, you’re, you’re great at sales, maybe even love sales, but you want to scale to the point where it really wouldn’t make sense for you to be a full-time salesman. And somebody comes in and maybe they’re not as good, but if somebody can replace you, free up your time in their 80% is typically the benchmark. If they can do the role 80% as well as you and it buys back a bunch of your time, then, then you can accept that.

But 80%’s kind of that cut off. Yeah, I love that I’ve never heard of that. That’s fair. That makes a lot of sense and I really like that. Yeah, yeah. Uh, Shane, this has been awesome. Is there, is, are there any other steps to professionalizing any, any other things that we should cover? No, nothing. I mean, I’m sure there’s a lot more, but those are some of the highlights that worked for us pretty quickly. I love it, man. Well, I appreciate you, brother. This was a wealth of information, got into a lot of tactics on this one.

So hopefully, you know, hopefully people drive a lot of information again. You can reach out to Shane through the podcast group. Got a few more episodes coming. I appreciate you, man.

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