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Guest Interview: Jason Paris of Paris Painting “A Painter’s Dream” Series: Episode 4

In this series titled “A Painter's Dream,” Jason Paris will be discussing what makes the painting industry so attractive to ambitious entrepreneurs, and how painting company owners can capitalize on current and future opportunities. It is a 4-part series.

In episode 4, the last episode, Jason will elaborate on his philosophies of business and how they apply to you and your painting company.

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Episode 4. Philosophies of business

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Welcome to the Painter Marketing Mastermind Podcast. The show created to help painting company owners build a thriving painting business that does well over one million and annual revenue. I'm your host. Brandon Pierpont, founder of painter marketing pros and creator of the popular pc, a educational series, learn do grow marketing for painters. In each episode I'll be sharing proven tips, strategies and processes from leading experts in the industry on how they found success in their painting business. We will be interviewing owners of the most successful painting companies in north America and learning from their experiences in this series titled A Painter's dream.

 
Jason paris will be discussing what makes the painting industry so attractive to ambitious entrepreneurs and how painting company owners can capitalize on current and future opportunities. It is a four part series. In episode one, Jason discussed macroeconomic trends and how the ebbs and flows of the economy should affect decision making and planning within your painting company. In episode two, Jason dove into the influx of young talent into the industry and what that means for all painting company owners. In episode three, Jason outlined what you need to do in order to make your painting company sellable, allowing you the option for a lucrative exit.
 
And in the final episode episode for this episode, Jason will elaborate on his philosophies of business and how they apply to you and your painting company. If you want to ask Jason questions related to anything in this podcast series, you can do so on our exclusive painter marketing Mastermind podcast forum on facebook. Just search for painter marketing mastermind podcast forum on facebook and request to join the group or type in the U. R. L. Facebook dot com forward slash groups forward slash painter marketing mastermind. Again that you are l.
 
Is facebook dot com forward slash groups forward slash Painter marketing mastermind there. You can ask Jason questions directly by tagging him with your question so you can see how anything discussed here applies to your particular company. Jason is the chair of the board of directors of the P. C. A. And founder of paris painting the most successful painting company that painter marketing process worked with to date. Jason. Welcome to episode four. Thanks for conducting man. We made it, we're finally here. I am terrified. I do not know what you're gonna do.
 
Well I know I know a little bit because you outlined outlined it five minutes for me to worry about this one for about six weeks yep yep. So this is one that we laid out, we said we're gonna do a four part series and 12 and three made a lot of sense and then you know this seems like the fun one for me just throw out there and now here we are we have to deliver. So here we go. Uh we're talking basically business philosophies and and uh like you said how they apply to your business and there's you know this is like an infinite well of conversational topics and so um spend a little bit of time, thank, what are some of the foundational things for how we run our company, we run the companies here, um, at all holdings, obviously company paris painting and then our other other businesses as well.
 
And this is something that people who followed me around the internet land have heard me say plenty of times, but the philosophy is the blue Ocean concept, right? It's kind of this idea of, there's a lot of uh, you called growth mindset, um there's a lot of opportunity out there, right? It's like a blue ocean of opportunity, right? It's not this fixed mindset or um, that there's that you're like limited in what you can achieve. And the way that that's kind of strung out through words has been, your only competition is your ability to execute your business model.
 
Now that is super, super true. And residential repaint, uh, but for whatever reason, maybe I think it's changed quite a bit, but five years ago, that was very, very antithetical to how most people's uh, paradigm was most people viewed, you know, my ability to succeed is determined by who's in my market and who I'm competing with and how well they do and all these weird little things, um, which just doesn't play out in residential repaint. I keep saying residential repaint because I'm not a commercial painter, I'm not an industrial painter.
 
I've always laid out the example of, I'll just say, oh the supremacy I like to win. Uh, and so in, in residential repaint, I think cooperative in is the best way to win. Uh, if I were painting, you know, just water towers in the state of Minnesota, I'd be slashing people's tires, right? I would not be cooperating, I'd be competing competitively, uh, in a zero sum game, right? This would not be a Blue Ocean, that would not be a blue Ocean, but we do operate in a blue Ocean, physically residential repaint.
 
So that's the first philosophy of business is the only competition is your ability to execute your business model. It truly is a numbers game. So if you, if you're painting water towers because you probably have to have relationships or contracts with municipalities, things like that. That's a zero sum game, residential repaint. Your, your point is essentially that there's enough work to go around. So it's really working together. You can actually not limited, Yeah, you're not limited by the market cap and water towers and it's just fills up like a hypothetical, So I don't know, maybe there are way too many water towers, I don't know, but conceptually, I'd say like the water tower thought experiment, you're limited by the market cap, right?
 
There's only so many water towers, you know, let's say you can only get a third of them. There's three really competitive people, you know, that's gonna dictate what your business looks like and residential repaint. I am not limited by market cap, right? I'm not limited by the revenue of jobs out there and the percent of those jobs I think I can get. I'm limited by how well our business functions, how well we execute the model that the business is laid out as how and so there's a couple different layers to that, you know what your ability execute.
 
So how, how focused and disciplined and skilled are the people that are operating that system. But then other component is, what is that architecture? What is that business model? And how easily can it be executed on? Right? This is where you start to see trade offs of different desires or business types or preferences. Right? So you have um you can have like an ultra craftsmanship orientated painting company, um which just doesn't, it's harder to scale quickly for sure. No one argues harder scale quickly than like a value based painting company. Right?
 
And so you kind of have your different spheres of painting um philosophies for lack of a better term. You'd have like the craftsmanship orientated, uh cheap, you know, price focused painter. And then that value, that value focus painter. Um And what which which niche you decide to kind of brand yourself with, will oftentimes dictate the architecture of the company and some architectures are easily easier to execute at scale than others. Yeah, so the basically three different tiers, the craftsmanship, the very high end, very meticulous attention to detail, kind of probably a much more labor intensive project and realistically a lower market cap because only so many things.
 
Yeah, lower market cap. So maybe depending on market you're in right? Um but but yeah, lower lower pool to pull from for people that want to want to buy that service and then a more challenging labor market and who can perform those services. Oh yeah, yeah, super good point. People have a hard enough time finding painters who can do the value based painting approach. A little price one, you know, it can also be a hard hard one to architect at scale as well because there's not enough margin uh in that business model to afford the infrastructure as you try to grow and try and scale. Right?
 
So a lot of times that will survive off of the martyrdom of the founder or the sole proprietor. Um and that that that's not something that scales beyond a single individual typically. Um but a value based, you know, company uh you have a much larger labor pool to pull from and there are like little um not like hacks but tricks on how to utilize your labor efficiently depending on their company's competencies and skill sets and pairing those with the right projects and homeowners. And then you also have a pretty wide pool of services or people are willing to purchase that service as well.
 
You're not niche down to people who are just looking for a great deal, but are willing to put up with a lot of like weird stuff. You're not niche down into ultra ultra high end, you know, prices, no issue. But, you know, I want to see that this person has painted for at least 20 years and tell me exactly what kind of brush is going to be, you know, on the job site. Um, both of those are harder to, to operate at scale. So your only competition is your ability to execute your business model, right?
 
So how well can you or your team execute? That's a company. That's a skill that's a limiting factor for running a residential repaint company. But then also your model, the model that you've architected and that you dictate those executions through is gonna limit or dictate or determine, um, the success or scale of your company. Yeah. So my, my guess is I know the answer to this question. It's, I think it's probably Blue Ocean, but it, you may segment it further. How would you look at the commercial market?
 
So I'm, I'm not a domain expert in that. So I'll tell you, like, my outside perspective, um, it's probably a hybrid in the middle. Right? So a lot of commercial outfits, they'll go across country. Um, but it, there's a continuum there, right? Because I also know, you know, the big commercial painting contractors, they'll bump into each other even out of state, you know, a handful of times and there's only so many stadiums being built, depending on what you're pitching down in or maybe you're just, uh, what do they call it?
 
Uh, like a white box outfit where you like coming in and there's a commercial repaint, you turn into a white box. Um, yeah, I'm certainly not your domain expert on that. My, my intuition tells me that, you know, specialized industrial is, if I want to win and I'm a competitive person, I'm competing in like a zero sum game. Like your loss is my gain. If I'm in commercial, that's probably like have these and I'll just say in residential, it's like your, your win is my gain, your loss end up typically being my loss because the overall tide goes down.
 
It's much more about cooperation residence repaint, right? It's highly fragmented, little buried entry. You're not gonna be limited by your percentage of market cap in this game, at least in, I live in the twin cities area. So we're like not a coastal city. Uh, we're also not like, you know, Chicago for midwest. Uh, but we're pretty, you know, we're, we're pretty good metropolitan area. So, um, you factor that into how, how I, how I felt philosophizing about the business to, Yeah, I kind of, I would love for you to run us through the math example that you do with, so this is something I did, um, a while ago, trying to think of when I, when I did it first, um, I might have done it on just a social media website for fun.
 
But when we started gathering in Minnesota painters was the first thing I did when I got everybody into the room. So I got a flip chart and I said, hey, you know, we're gonna do this thing called Cooperative Mission. Uh, most of the time when any of you or I walk into a paint store, um, people are really weird, painting contractors are really weird people and uh, it's very competitive and standoffish and like maybe like I won't tell you who this or I don't know, just, just bizarre, bizarre stuff for someone who isn't used to that uh, modus operandi, you come in, you're like, oh, this feels a little, little little weird.
 
So first thing I did get the flip chart out and say basic math, right? Here's the premise, none of us are limited by our percentage of market cap because the market cap is so huge. And long before we run into issues of, you know, having large percentages that we have to divvy up between us, We'll run into issues of hitting the cap of our ability to scale a business model. Right? And so what's the basic math on that, you say, You know, how many Sherwin stores are you willing to drive to write for geography area, right?
 
Because there's a lot of Sherwin stores in the state in the Midwest in the country, but we're only willing to service an area that drives, you know? But then around there's like 20 stores that fit the a geographic area that were willing to drive through, and you say, how much paint and sundries do they sell there are relevant to the services that I offer. So I don't do like concrete coatings. Uh we don't do crazy industrial stuff, you know, there's like there's like five, maybe 67 products that fall within the residential bread and butter things that we do.
 
So I look for the revenue of that. I don't know if it's an average size store, Like, let's say you're in the top, it's like it's like a quarter deviation from the average store. You know, then do the math. I'm going down to the media and multiplied by the total stores. If you start with a normal sized store first, it's a lot easier if you just multiply that by 20 because it is an average size store. Then you ask Sherwin, and they know, and then they would know this, they say, you say, what, what percent market cap in this geographical area do you have of that, of those, of those products and sundries?
 
And they don't know that answer, and they tell you, right? So then you take that revenue. So you have the median the mean store produce that they sell multiply geographical area number stores that you're willing to service, Then divide that by the percentage of market cap that they hold to get the total market cap, right? So there's typically like an ace hardware box stores, maybe a local distributor, right? Those are things that will be competing against. And then let's just say for the sake of math, they say like, Oh, we have, you know, we have 50% of the market cap and that multiplied by two.
 
Look at the, like an average industry benchmark for materials. And now if you, if you have trouble with this exercise, you probably aren't job costing and don't know your percentages. So just use 15% on average, paying companies send 15% on paint and countries average average average don't, don't send me mean emails. That's an average. So you divide that revenue by that . 15% and that gives you the total revenue that, that paint and sundries, uh, is relevant to right now. You know, the total market in your geographical area, It's a big number, right?
 
You start doing the math and you're like, oh, if everybody in here became, you know, a $803 million company, uh, would be okay right now, not everybody is, uh, maybe one person is, and okay. Now now you at least have a grounding of perspective of, of what reality is. And that's just, that's like a healthy exercise to do in life. Um, get grounded in the facts. Get grounded in the numbers to make sure you have an appropriate perspective and give you two more examples of this, I have a leaky like bathtub?
 
My bathtub, like after the kids take a shower, it kind of like leaks. Like after they give him a bath, it's like dripping And I'm like stressed out. I'm like, Oh man, this is like a little stressful, like how much am I spending in my utility bill? Uh should I come and call a plumber out here and tighten it up? It's probably a $200 trip charge. Should I do this or not emotionally? I'm stressed out. But then I start doing the facts right? So I sit there for a minute.
 
I count the number of trips is, this is a real story. I might, yeah, so this is, this is what you stress out about. So I usually get stressed out and then I start and then I go to the facts and I said, well what are the facts? So I count the number of drips in a minute. And I go, how many drips are in a gallon? And what's my cost per gallon? And I end up doing the math. It's like, okay this is costing me $2 it's costing me five cents a week.
 
I'm spending five cents a week with the stripy thing. I'm no longer stressed out. All the stress goes away and I start doing the math. Like, well how much is that per year? I'm like, well if I did get a trip charge out here of $200. What's the cost of that capital? Over the year? Like I'm actually saving money by not having a plumber come out here because I can put that $200 to work in the market or not investment and make more money than I'm losing in this trippy trippy thing now we'll probably get fixed.
 
It's kind of annoying. But that's just an example of how you take stress. Go through the facts, go through numbers make it less stressful. The second thing is this was years ago I felt like we were spending a lot of money on food. So when you go to the US FDA or whatever it is and you see what is the average they have like a budget normal and like high spending family budgets you say okay we're actually spending within the normal range based off the data of the U. S. Census.
 
Since then we moved next to whole foods and trader joe's. So now there is no budget. But that was an example in the past where I got stressed out about how much money we're spending on food seemingly right? You see like this this avocado didn't even eat it. It's brown. I can only imagine how much money we're spending right. Then you go through the facts how much money we're actually spending. What's the national average? It gives you a benchmark to go against. So yeah, facts, facts over feelings.
 
Um okay, that's philosophy one. We can take more into it if you want. I can go number two. Yeah, no, I just, I won't follow up there. So I used that example, right? I heard it first at the next ask a painter live went to retreat that we're on just to be clear. He got it from me. You know? I always always like you. Yeah, no, I just like me. I basically own half of his company if you think about it for how much it helped him.
 
Yeah, you do. Yeah, no, I I got a draft on the authority whatever way I can. Right? So now I cite you the Sherwin Williams example because I actually was on a call and I'm going to leave, leave all the specifics out of this conversation, but I was on a call yesterday with a company that that said they're they're a little under a million in revenue. They serve a an area metropolitan area that is over a million in population. Um that's 800,000 where the actual metro area, then surrounding areas and there again under a little under a million in residential repaint per year.
 
And they told me that they think that they need to either expand their geography further, which again, they're already they're already over a million people that I think is about 1.4 in their service area or they need to go downstream more and not, and they're not that top craftsmanship that you were saying they were the value based approach. Um and I ran them through this example actually looked up ST paul Minneapolis, it looks like you guys are around the same market cap in general as this. And the fact that you guys are on track to 11, 12, some some sort of pretty high number in 103 that they're probably not capped out.
 
Oh, they said they sort of the top 10% of the market. So there is that. Yeah. Right. And and so the reality is it's probably a little bit more than that. But I said if you guys are at 11 or 12 million with a similar population, my bet is that they can probably bump up without having to to go statewide or something or go, you know, downstream and start competing more on price. And that's where I think a lot of painting company, they do, they think they've tapped it out or whatever, but they're not actually sitting down doing the math.
 
Yeah, I think it's really easy to visualize if you even just hold it into one store and you're like, man, I'm uh, you know, if you're a million bucks, let's say I'm being I'm paying 100 and $50,000 of painting sundries, you know, I'm like, I need to, I need to go to New geography, right? And uh it's like, well that store is selling about $2 million of stuff of revenue. And let's say half of that is relevant to the services that you provide. It's like a million dollars. Uh you're like, well, easy math, your 15% of the revenue of that store of that, that that's, that's one store.
 
So like that's like, oh, so that means that there's 85% that they're selling, they're relevant to what I provide, that I'm not doing in that store in one store. And I like to drive around and that's, let's say it's an average store, I don't know what their their area is, but um it's an average store and they like the service 1003 stores, right? So suddenly you're like, oh, okay. So I don't know, hopefully starts to click with people, maybe like, you need a visual or something like that. But um it was very odd.
 
As I got into my own painting company. I went to Sherwin Stores how standoffish painting business owners were. Uh it was just weird. I was like, huh, this is weird. I mean, it would make more sense in like different market conditions, but for this market, it's truly bizarre behavior, which I think is ultimately rooted in insecurity. Uh and maybe just anger. There's a lot of anger in the painting industry, I think it's ultimately all rooted in insecurity. Yeah, awesome. So what, what are we calling philosophy one there?
 
Okay, uh Blue Ocean? Blue Philosophy one is Blue Ocean. Okay. What is called a lot of things. Yeah, explosion, growth mindset. Um, cooperation. What is philosophy to? So two would be the long game, long game versus short game. This is the philosophy, how you run your business. And then, um, I was talking to somebody yesterday and I said the only reason I'm playing the long game, so I plan on doing this for a long time. Right? That's the only reason it's a good strategy. Otherwise any time things aren't going well in my life.
 
I just say, well I'm playing the long game, but longer than most people realize like we're, so we want instagram long game is like a years long game. It's not, not 36 months. Yeah. If you're interested in doing it for a long time, right? If you're not interested in doing things for a long time or you have uncertainty about doing things for a long time. Short game would be your best strategy to optimize utility or whatever you're starting to measure. So uh, maybe that's like a more simple philosophy, but just this concept of playing the long game, playing the short game and like saying, I like, like getting rooted in things that are super super simple, which is, you play the long game and you plan on being in something for a long term. Yeah.
 
If you're not gonna be a long term, don't play the long game, play a short game, playing medium game. You know, your budget hedge your bets, uh do some risk management, things like that. Um But being it for a long game, that's that's the only philosophy that I hold. It's a philosophy that we have a pair of painting and then larger and in all of holdings as well, How that plays out practically. Right? It's uh you know, probably the most basically I can explain it would be as you're you're focusing more on your balance sheet than your P. And L. Right?
 
And P. And L. Is important and you can't have a world class organization without a strong P. And L. Uh You know, one it's the gas that allows you to do cool things within your company. Uh You know, it provides the margin for infrastructure and all that. Um But making sure that you're properly stewarding that balance sheet is important as well. It's a classic uh you know, the golden chicken and the golden egg, Right? And so you want to make sure you have a healthy tension in that, right?
 
You never just want to focus 100% on that golden. There's the golden goose. Maybe that's the I don't know what's called the goose's lay eggs. I don't think it's Yeah, I don't think they don't give live birth. So I appreciate their legs. Do you know that? Some sharks lay eggs and some sharks give like all right, that's a tangent. Uh This is what I was afraid of your goose is like you never wanna focus too much on the golden goose, right? And then forsake the golden eggs, right?
 
You want to make sure that you're properly harvesting and stewarding those golden eggs, but you also never just want to focus on the egg. Harvest and neglect the goose, right? So you have to have a healthy attention and healthy balance on the both for the long term. Probably want to hear a little bit more towards stewarding that goose, right? Because because it's a goose that's gonna continue to produce those those profits, those eggs for a long time. And you know, the golden prize in these businesses is stable passive income and a lot of times someone will achieve one, but not both, right?
 
So I don't know if you ever talk to a business owner, but they're like, yeah my profits are pretty stable. You know, pretty much every year we make make this much money. Um But it's certainly not passive, right? It's a lifestyle business. It's a classic lifestyle business, lifestyle businesses where you don't have to work very hard, but you make a lot of money. But if you stop showing up, it would crumble pretty fast, right? You stop, you stop getting money, right? So you have like this awesome job, which is great.
 
It's a God bless America scenario there scenario is, you know, I have passive profits, but they're not very stable, right? It's like your classic owner who steps out and, and there's like an individual or maybe a few individuals or little team that are running things and it's great for like two weeks, three months, six months a year, two years. Uh but it's not stable, doesn't last forever. There's not inertia there there's not momentum and you have passive income, you have passive profits but they're not stable for the long term.
 
So to be able to harvest uh both stable and passive passive income, passive profits. Um that's really like the golden mark for a, for a painting business. So I, you know, as you know my background in another life is in finance, investment banking and private equity balance sheet. Yeah. And I'm trying to, I'm trying to, I'm not 100% sure what you mean. So if I'm not 100% sure probably other capital investment in a painting company like like trucks and things like is that kinda what you're referring to things like that or so I would say.
 
So painting companies are not super capital intensive. So it's great to clarify that because that gets to a point, you can look at another element of balance sheet as like brand or brand and culture, right? Those are the two big balance sheet items. So you can squeeze out your brand equity for the sake of short term profits, right? You can squeeze and squeeze and and get all the profits you want in 2023 to the detriment to the lowering of your balance sheet of your, of your company's brand, right?
 
The way you do this is um, you know, maybe just maybe just cutting some staff and having a thinner layer of, of client services services kind of falling through the cracks and falls through the cracks. But you're not paying that overhead. So you're squeezing out some more profit. Your brand equity goes down, right. Culture would be the same thing. You know, you're driving people a little too hard spreading them a little too thin. Uh, you're not making those deposits that pay off in the long term, right squeeze.
 
You're squeezing, it's going, going good for this year's profit line, but over the next handful of years, that's gonna hurt as that culture diminishes culture is a big asset to the company has. So it's basically what you're talking about is reinvesting back into your business, through a team, through treating your team well, through making sure that the customers well served versus pulling out the highest net profit possible. But maybe kind of leaving some pieces on the table there. Yeah, I mean, honestly, another element would be your labor in the past 10 years.
 
The market is in the past 10 years. I tell you something every episode past 10 years. I don't know why you'd ever company like the walked uphill in the snow to school there and back kind of story the last 10 years have been great. So I was actually walking downhill because labor has been the real, the real nut to crack for competing companies to scale and to thrive and you know, you can squeeze your labor and you can really, you know, hammer them down uh, for the, for the sake of this year's profit.
 
But you know what an asset it is to have when painters subcontractors are continually knocking on your door saying, hey, do you work for me yet? Hey, my buddy is working for you. I love to work for you. What can we do to make this work? Uh, there's a lot of value there in the long term. Yeah. What do you, I don't want to go too far off. But with the labor market that has been a big pain point for the last couple of years. What do you, how do you feel about it now moving into 1003 I think the number one thing to focus on is professionalizing your business because why would, why would a painter or subcontractor want to work for 99% of these quote unquote business owners, their own painting companies right there disorganized.
 
There's no job description, there's no path to a career advancement and uh, it's like the biggest complaint, but it's also the biggest issue. I think the issue starts with the business owners. So I would just say that's like another in my, in my mind it comes to philosophy number one, which is blue ocean where there is an unlimited stock of painters who are dissatisfied and frankly abused by their current employers. For us to pull from right far beyond where I have to start concerning myself with the market cap of labor and be more constrained by our business's ability to scale how well we can execute that model before I start to deal with.
 
There's not enough painters out there. Yeah, I would go back to that bluish and mindset of you don't even have, it's kind of like with with clients like with clients, if you can answer your phone, show up, not insult them And deliver them a quote. You got a pretty good chance of landing that bid here in 2022. Right. Same thing with labor. Like we all like to complain about labor, but if you can put an ad that isn't, that isn't offensive to people, people can hear about your company in a way that inspires them.
 
They show up and you have some semblance of organization and structure for them to thrive in got a pretty good chance of recruiting that individual, right? Yeah. I saw a facebook ad that that said don't show up drunk and we'll hire you as a painter. And I was, you know, it's not gonna probably attract the right kind of kind of painter you're looking for. I guess they won't show up drunk. So that's good, but it's, it's a pretty crap add. Yeah, there's no, there's no good, there's no good painters out there, quote unquote.
 
Uh, somehow Sherwin Williams sells more and more paint every single year. More gallons get applied. There are plenty of painters out there, there are lots and lots of painters, if you can run, you know, some semblance of a professionalized company, they're gonna want to work for you because 99% of companies are abusing their painters and why wouldn't they want to jump ship? Yeah, yeah, we don't have Amazon drones painting houses quite yet. So that paints being applied by somebody. Alright, we have philosophy one blue ocean slash growth mindset slash cooperative mission Philosophy too is the long game invest into your business.
 
Don't try to squeeze all your profit margins. We're gonna do the gold yet the golden egg, all that. What's Philosophy three, I'd say open book management. So this is the way you call it transparency. Probably called transparency. Sometimes it seems like you're taking notes. So I'm always taking notes, man learning. I'm learning. I hope everyone who's listening to this is taking notes, I'm sure Well most of them are driving or out and about, but they should, they should sit down and take some notes on this stuff.
 
But I would say transparency, open book management is the way that we operate our companies, it's another foundational cornerstone philosophy of business and so there's a couple of, of concepts in their uh practically with open book management. What that looks like is we're very transparent how the company makes money and how people are compensated in their roles, right? So there's an overall business model in order chart a budget, financial systems in place, right? We would say here's an easy example sales and marketing. Here's your budget that fits within the percentage of the business model that works how you make money within that percentage is up to you, right?
 
And uh it opens up a couple of fun conversations which are, we've had people come and say, you know how can I like a race? I'd like a raise. I don't have any business owner has ever heard that before. I'd like to raise. The response is always like that's fantastic. Tell me how that works. You know the business model? You know the metrics, you know the kPI s. You know uh the cost on margin is how most of our roles are compensated. Uh Seems like you want to raise.
 
That's awesome. Tell me how that's gonna work. How much money do you want to make? It's never like I'm never gonna tell you know I'm never going to tell you know, the answer is always how can we how can we make, how can you make $280,280 next year as a sales rep that pairs painting. You tell me, right? It seems like you're gonna do this many bids. You're gonna have this level or this this size, average job size, right? Your skills can be developed to this level where you're still that percentage of jobs you're going to generate.
 
You know these these many bids on your own. So in the business saves on that marketing cost, we'll give that to you, right? Whether we pay uh google, we don't use google plus whether we pay a marketing service I don't want or use any marketing or any marketing service that could be out there or we pay that employee to self generate that lead. Doesn't matter to me, right? So we start saying like, okay, here's how that would work. Here's how it does work. It's never know. It's always how can we.
 
So it's open book management style. I'd also say like this transparency thing, that's like a practical use transparency is really easy when you don't have secrets to hide. Yeah. Right? When you have secrets were trying to hide things, it's really, really hard. Uh This is like like a philosophy of business from from day one. So we hired his name is Hogan, he's our first sales rep that was not had not run a painting company before, right? So I run, I've been running my painting company uh quote unquote painting companies before, which is really buying their book of business, uh their equipment and then having them come on as staff and had them do sales.
 
So it was always like highly intuition focused. But Hogan came over and he's like, what if somebody asked me a question? I don't know, I'd say shoot, you know what I would do? I'd be honest with him. Be honest and say, you know what? I don't know that answer. Actually. I've never painted a house before. Uh, what I do know is how to build your house and I don't, I don't know this technical question, but I can find out the answer and get back to just be honest, right?
 
We have nothing to hide. Right? I'm not like trying to like, uh, you know, hide the weenie and say, hey, Hoboken has never painted a house before. My goodness, don't tell anybody that I know, I don't care. He's a he's gonna, he's gonna be a world class salesperson. He's gonna find the client's needs, identify the scope, present an act, an appropriate solution to it and then have the emotional intelligence to close the job. You can do it all in an organized way so we can deliver a world class product at the end.
 
The homeowners will appreciate that. If anything, it'll, it'll bode in your favor. Yeah. Now, sure, like, again, people can message me there mean emails after I do these podcasts and say, well, what about, you know the commercial, industrial, does this happen? Because you filmed a couple of podcasts with us. Do you get mean emails only on yours awesome. Makes you feel good? Uh sure specialty scenarios. But in general, I just say be honest with people. Just be honest. If someone says like, oh, you know, why don't you get back to my email?
 
Say you know, I'll be honest. I pieced out for three days and turn my phone off. It's something I do every year. It's kind of like a silent retreat meditation and you know, I had a lot of emails and I didn't get to yours. I'll get to it the next day. All right. Don't be like, oh shoot they're gonna find out I'm a fraud. I think that. So I talked about the insecurity early on that there is a deep, deep root of insecurity in this industry that's rooted around.
 
I think like they're gonna find out I'm a fraud. And part of that is just the origin story of most small business owners in residential painting. You know, they, there's two origin stories. One is uh my dad did it and I took over the company or I made with him for a while and start my own company. The second origin story is very similar. But the second part of that first one, which is so I worked for a guy and it was not great. That's that's like the most common story in the industry.
 
I worked for a guy and it wasn't that great. Most companies are not great to work for, which gives me back to the Blue Ocean concept on labor, right? So I end up starting their own company, but that doesn't go there. Like I'm a fraud. I don't know everything about business. I actually don't know everything about painting. I know this is better than what I was doing now. I have all of the securities and build these walls, get combative with other painting contractors in the store. Jason walks in all hunky dory happy, happy and starts trying to talk to people and immediately gets like people like fighting him and like being mean to him and I'm like, jeez, this is weird.
 
This is weird because it's weird for the market condition, residential repaint. You think there'd be a lot more competition, but then you start to like get into the industry a little bit more really find out the roots of the origins and like make a hypothesis on the psyche and there's just a lot of people are gonna find out, I'm a fraud fear. Um, that drives that behavior. So let's say someone listening to this feels that way, Let's say they feel that's fine if you're a fraud. So I would just like, you don't have to just, just be honest, I mean what you are is good enough what you are is good enough.
 
And I say like early on I worked with a handful of general contractors and uh, they'd be like, yeah, I'm gonna need you to uh, you know, paint that sconce over there, like, okay, just what is the sconce and something like, just just what is the sconce, I don't know what that is, I don't know what sconces I painted in college, I started my own painting company, we do a great job, but I don't know what the sconces, what does that word mean right now, a lot of people would be like, okay, sconce, yep.
 
Mhm, yep, yep, and then they get back home and like, what is this constant, like, I should ask this question about what color it should be right now, I figure out it's Wisconsin like, okay, just do you want that to be the same color as the wall or a different color because that's gonna make a difference in how I did this, you can identify quickly, but what you are is good enough. That's what I found for myself. I was like, hey, I don't GCS would ask me these questions all the time, like, I have no idea, or they start talking about the project and like, what does that mean?
 
A lot of times they don't know, they're just like saying stuff, so I think it's that thing, I said it because it's a weird thing, I think it's the thing that's behind the light when the lights on the wall, I think that's what it is. Okay, well, I'm gonna have to, I'm gonna have to go because I actually don't, it, is it is, I think it's like that thing. It's definitely the thing. So it's a thing that I'm right because it's one of these things, Yeah, just, yeah, just go ahead and paint that scott.
 
Don't worry if someone, like, if your painter comes up to you and says like, hey, can you, can you lay out my schedule for the next three weeks? If you're trying to hide it, then that's a hard question to answer. Or you could say like, hey, I don't actually know I have your next week booked out after that. Like I'm flying by the seat of my pants man, I'll be honest with you. Like I'm scaling this company. Uh, we're like, I'm burning the midnight oil, doing the best I can and I've got a good track record of surviving.
 
Uh, so we'll figure it out. Just that is better than people. People can read through you pretty quick. You can, you can get along a little, you can get along a little bit. Like trying to be, you know, darcy dough around people, but people sniff that out pretty quick. I think you just get more respect when you're honest with people. Just say this is what I am, is what I can do. No, I don't know what you're talking about. No, I don't know the answer to this.
 
I'm actually bad at that. Like people, people are, that's what you want in life too, like you want to be appreciated for the things that you actually can do good at. Yeah, those, those are a couple examples. Homeowners questioning. Hoboken on like, you know, hey, what what would you do? I don't know, I can't think of a question. And then he called me, I'd be like, just be honest with them, tell them you don't know like well what if they like him really like how don't you know this?
 
They like just tell him that you were fined that you're a financial analyst and you just quit your job. You start working with a painting company because you saw the future and what was gonna happen here and you're excited about it and yeah, you don't know a ton about painting, but you do know how to get customers needs accurate scope, identify the right solution given the basic knowledge that you have. If you don't really answer, you have great resources around you just tell them that yeah, people value transparency and it's refreshing because it's unusual.
 
So when you're transparent, they trust you more and they're even if even if they weren't ideal, oftentimes it's actually bode in your favor because you're so open about it and it's easy to do when you're not trying to hide things right? I think people hide a lot of stuff because of that root of insecurity. It's just be okay with who you are okay with your level of competency? Uh, likely it's more than enough for this for this market. Yeah. Okay, so the philosophy three's transparency, What is philosophy forward call it democratizing versus dictating right?
 
Or democracy versus dictator. This is not like a political debate around structures because there's no debate, dictatorship is actually the best model. Uh, you know, if you have Marcus Aurelius as like the dictator, like the one guy leading everything is phenomenal. It's the best like that's gonna out outperform democracy any day of the week. Right? The problem is that that's not sustainable in the long term. Right? So then you get Nero and then things go pretty bad, right? If you have Marcus Aurelius, this is great. Everybody's happy.
 
You know, the kingdom is phenomenal. Performing well scenario here. Yeah. It's most effective. It's how most is how every painting company starts. I say most, but I can practically say every and people, even if they want to email me something, mean I can say it will be fine, right? Democracy is much more stable in the long term, right? America has. I mean, yeah, I get so many emails. Democracy, Everyone listening don't stop emailing Jason mean emailing emailing mean things. These are his, his viewpoints. You don't have to agree with them because I mean I can just kidding people don't send me that much, but everyone, it's the ones that you do get that you're like, you try to respond to him and you realize that there's not a high level of reading comprehension there.
 
It's like, it's like, it's like a social media, you know, war. Like it's just best not to get involved. So anyways, democracy is much more stable over the long term America has proven that out through much longer stability staying on top. But Dictatorships are much more effective. Then you start to get into business philosophies of when is it appropriate to have a dictator and when is it appropriate to have democratized whether it's a democracy or use a democratized the decision making right or even all the way to the point of democratizing the equity of a painting company.
 
And so, you know, there's this one, there's not like an easy answer for right, because in the startup it's much better to have a dictatorship. You know, as long as you can have high performing key individuals in place. You know, I I prefer Dictatorships in general. I'd rather be under Marcus Aurelius than uh, than whatever we have going on in the US right now. Right? But when Marcus Aurelius goes away now, it's like you said, you said really well, high risk, high reward. So a lot of painting business owners start thinking throws through those decision metrics, you know, how long are you going to be active and driving and leading that painting company?
 
Uh, the default is every day of their life, right? But they're not typically business is uh they're typically, you know, great jobs, self employed painting contractors, maybe a self employed sales rep, maybe a self employed president. Um, but that dictatorship eventually ends. And then if you've got that same structure that's going to continue, you know, there's a risk and reward structure, risk. There's high risk, high reward for who steps in that seat next versus democratizing the decision making, democratizing the leadership, you know, all the way to democratizing the equity of the painting company makes it much more stable over the long run.
 
Yeah, it's kind of another way I think of looking at, you know, nick has that, I think it's weird because I've never heard of a turkey truck, but he's got that weird turkey truck, you know, once again, where do you think you learned that from? I'll just tell you that is actually for sure. 210%. No, I didn't make that up. It's a very, very common phrase. But once I told him that you start seeing a lot, we're giving him a hard time. We're giving you a hard time.
 
Nick is a world class individual. Uh, he, the way that he approached getting off of the island of his painting company, set his path on the, on the amount of life success that he's had since that moment, right? Most people who have been grinding, you know, group in the family business grinding on their own for 280 years. You know, finally find out what professional painting businesses looked like by getting off the island, uh, get pretty bitter, pretty fast, right, pretty defensive, pretty bitter, pretty angry. He chose because they've been doing it the other way for a lot of trauma and pain to like, I mean, Nick has spoken openly about this, he's like, yeah, I wasted like 210 years and that opportunity cost, I'll never get over. Yeah.
 
And so yeah, how you approach trauma, you know, we go deep into that rabbit trail as well. But I just wanted, I give Nick a hard time because it's fun because he's like a big face in the industry, but he's a really, really great guy, strong individual, phenomenal character. But I did teach him everything he knows. Okay? Yeah. Turkey truck test is, you know, if the person running the show gets hit by the turkey truck, you know what happens to the shareholders of that business. So it's like, do your wife and kids keep getting a little distribution checks every quarter or is that business go away right away.
 
So it's not a right or wrong, right. The life businesses are the default in this industry and this can be phenomenal. It's kind of like the dentist who runs his own practice, right? It's like, God bless America. This is awesome, right? You can make a big, big, you can make more money than a cardiac surgeon being a lifestyle business in the painting industry, right? It's great. It's like a little too good right now. And I don't think it'll last that way forever. I think it will get a lot more competitive and more professionalized.
 
We talked about that in previous episodes. Um, but there is this like new paradigm that I've been trying to introduce and I think people are starting to catch on to it. Like you can, you can also build a business that's going to deliver stable passive income for the rest of your life, right? That's also an option, Right? And and and it's like that awareness is step one right? So like this is an option, okay, painting companies is what it can look like, um getting off the island, seeing what's out there, getting exposed to like bananas and things like that.
 
It's all good for the human psyche. Yeah, I don't see human psyche, it's all good for uh, for personal actualization. Yeah. Yeah. So the one thing that kind of stood out to me regarding the turkey truck test is I always viewed that as systems and processes. You know, your owner operators, they're doing everything and no one, no one can fill in, then they get hit by the turkey truck, everything's gonna fall apart. But one thing that just stood out to me, but this is also the decision making, the culture, the kind of the leadership of it, not just the systems and processes if other people are involved because market conditions sometimes change, you know, scenarios sometimes change and if they're involved, then then that can continue to run even when, when things shift, Whereas if it's a dictatorship the moment a curve ball comes, no one's gonna have any idea what to do.
 
This is how businesses work in in general, right? This is how like companies grow and sustain like over long periods of time. Uh, This is not how painting companies are run, right? But how like you go to the Fortune 2100 list, any any major like this is how business works. This is how business, this is called like business, right? And business is a pretty foreign concept in the painting industry. Won't stay that way forever. Listen to previous episodes. Please also don't email me mean things and saying that I don't understand.
 
Uh, there's a lot of great painting companies out there. I agree you are definitely one of them. So you don't need to email me about that. Um, but in general, it's not like we're like in a pretty Nici space and it's, it's just like a weird period of time where the modus operandi has been lifestyle business and that's great. There's nothing wrong with that. Uh, but it shouldn't be the proliferation that it is in the market, right? That's like an odd thing. Um, There's definitely more incentive than that and that, that hasn't clicked yet hasn't switched over.
 
Um, We've talked about a little bit in previous episodes, but that, that certainly seems like it's the conditions are laid for that to change. Yeah, you're listening, you're the best painting company. So be happy and we're gonna have a fraud, not a fraud, you're doing great. And we're gonna Jason you're gonna come live in the facebook group because I'm gonna try to pull out some of these haters. We're gonna we're gonna we're gonna bait them and we're going to get them to leave them. You don't have to just just give them my personal cell number and they can call me goes straight to voicemail.
 
Anyways, my phone doesn't ring unless you're in my contacts. Um Philosophy number five. The hard way is the real way. Uh This is just a philosophy of like if you want to achieve something worthwhile, it takes work right? The most fun part of running a business is usually this time of year. Um because you get to put your plans on the white board and they look awesome and you're high fiving each other for how much money you're gonna make next year. And uh super fun. But the reality, yeah the reality is like that's called uninformed optimism.
 
Uh that's the ivory tower and if you want to achieve results, you gotta get out of the ivory tower, you got to get into the ground the mud and you gotta you gotta plow the fields right? And hard work is the real work um That I don't know how else to say. It's just, it's this concept of if you want to really integrate uh culture values performance into a company, you gotta go shoulder shoulder, you gotta bear that yoke uh with those around you and you got to plow the fields.
 
Yeah, there's no shortcut to that. Yeah, 103%. I think, you know, with with marketing, with my industry in particular, there's so much hype, there's so much, you know, everyone's always doing great, right, everyone's doing great, this new things work works the best thing ever, and I think it's it's frustrating to me to see because I know it's not true, right? It's always uh everyone tries to make it look really easy, right easy, there is no easy button, you have to be good at what you do and you have to put in work to make it work, right, that's the long term success, There's someone I listen to like a lot, I'm sure you you listen probably listen to Alex and mosey, he runs the podcast, um he's very successful, coaches, people built, built a lot of really successful business, but Alex from Ozy um says that people as a whole tend to grossly underestimate the amount of work it takes to become massively successful and you've talked about this, you know, the entrepreneur, the business owner there, you have to have a high tolerance for pain for a pretty extended period of time, if you're going to really create something magnificent passion, they'll push you beyond rational thought, right, because it's a lot of times since not every scenario, so don't email me please, you're a hug up on these even you're saying you're saying it's not happening, but I know it's happening.
 
I'm like, I'm actually speaking into existence unfortunately. Um you are now, you are, you're gonna get tons of them. So it also requires quite a bit of passion because it's a tremendous amount of pain. Uh uh non optimistic reality staring in the face uh with no guaranteed outcome, right? So you're not guaranteed to be successful because you put in the work, nobody is there, like, wow, he's working hard, this is great. Uh this is not like a law firm where you get to like clock your hours, you work really hard, It's like, okay, he's putting this dude, like we get, we'll pay him more every hour.
 
He works, he's gonna make more money, you can work really, really hard as an entrepreneur and you can hit a hit with a curve ball and you can actually lose money. Just make money, not just not make much money, not make no money, but lose money, right? That's how business works. And uh you have to have like an irrational passion, I believe uh is why we look when someone says they're entrepreneurial, it's like where's that irrational passion uh because you're not guaranteed a result, it's gonna be super painful and there's not, there will be times where there's just not a lot of optimism in front of you.
 
Yeah, it'll be dark, like you said that your your tune glass, you're staring off into the dark abyss. That's entrepreneurship. I want to push back on you a little bit, Jason, uh a little bit on this. So there's a quote that I like that I live by, I agree with you in a lot of ways, but I also want to, I want to push back for anyone listening, the only way you fails if you quit, that's that's what I live by. And I think you hit these curveballs right?
 
You can have a business, you can have painting company and something happens, you know, So you can see whatever occurs and you actually could lose that business, you could lose money, you could get to the point where you're, you're bankrupt, right? This happens to people, you have to go get a job, but if you want to own a business and I wanna, I wanna caveat this and you're willing to to um implement self growth, so you're willing to learn from people who've done it before. You're willing to do whatever you need to do to learn, not just keep beating your head against the wall because that that is a way to fail forever.
 
You're willing to learn and adapt. Eventually you all succeed. I sincerely believe that, but it's probably going to take longer than you wanted to and you're gonna enter darker times than than you wish that you were in? Yeah, there's like macro failure and micro failure and and what is failing right? Do you ever actually fail if you don't quit? Silicon Valley loves when you fail and you're supposed to fail like 210 times then you're winning. So yeah, there is, there's bankruptcy laws written in the U. S. Um that encourage encourage taking risks and and swinging big and all those things.
 
Um Yeah, we have a bit more padding than in a lot of places, yep. One more penny. Now. It's not like get out of jail free cards. Uh there are real consequences to that. And uh to your point, if you spend 210 years building a company uh, you know sacrificing a lot and don't make any money. Is that a failure? Yes. No, depends, depends on your reaction to it. Right over the long term micro failure I would say. Yeah, that's a big fail. But macro can you, can you overcome that?
 
You know, can you take that as a learning point and not quit? You are not a failure. That business endeavor did fail right? That businesses fail? You're not going to fail long term. You're not a failure. You can still be a success. And what is success, right? What is failure? We're all on this earth temporarily? Yeah. This limited sphere of influence. And now if we learned anything from the ancient Egyptians. Yeah, it's that Cat's pictures rule the internet. They do. Yeah. I have a well, here we go.
 
I have an app called cat facts. Uh, always a crap out of people. You can just hit it. And if I want to send a circle of friends that I'm in a text chat with and I'll just send them like six facts about cats, the most random things in the world. But if anyone wants, okay, we got one more. We got one more before the number six. Yes. Wasn't that number five. Okay. Okay. All right. Number six is there's always a choice. There's a philosophy. There's always a choice.
 
And uh, you know, I don't know. I'm trying to think of an example that's upbeat. But I always think of one where it's like, uh, you know, we can't fire that person because of X. Y. Z. It's like, well, you can fire that person and then you deal with X. Y. Z. You do have a choice. You can do that. Uh Or you could say like, oh, we can't paint that person's house a second time because I don't like the color and whatever. You know, then we won't make any money.
 
Like, well, you can paint that person's house for free and not make any money. Yeah, that's an option. Um, I think of some better ones. It might be like, uh, you can use the one that we discussed before this. Yeah, it might be like, hey, you know, I had this midlife crisis. And uh, and I started a marketing painting company and I signed up for the army and I just got back back up, there's no midlife crisis. So we'll restart. We never life crisis crisis life Now I know these are life choices, longevity.
 
I think I'm a spring chicken. Are you kidding? 210? I'm just getting started but continue. So this is actually okay. So you go into the book of genesis, you know, there's a lot of debate around the what age is, it's like 100 and 34. Now I would say that was more descriptive and prescriptive. I don't think there actually is that limit. But these are things that my wife and I debate on. So you could say quarter life crisis. I'm not sure if it's Biblical or not, but we can roll with it.
 
And uh anyways, you get the schedule for the army, it says, okay, shoot I've got my drills, you know, during the thursday friday of expo, pc a National Guard National Guard. I can't I can't looks like I can't go to expo, right? Because if I skip those drills, they put me in jail, right? Because I'm government property during that period time. It's like, well you can, you can skip those drills, go to pc expo and then we'll pray for you and your family while they don't see dad, yep.
 
Yeah, so this was this was a real real decision on my mind working out Pc expo happens only once a year and only once a year? It's a very big industry event? Yeah, lose momentum, don't get to connect with with all the painting company owners, with the other with the other industry vendors and partners. Um and yeah, I made my decision, but ultimately was able to get that worked out and do not have to go to jail, but it was a point where most people, if they were staring at that and they think, oh man, you know, there's a chance to get put into jail.
 
I don't have a choice. We always have a choice. Just, what are you, what are you willing to, what consequences are you willing to endure? You want to weigh out the pros and cons and make the appropriate decision? Uh Yeah, there's a lot of head trash, I'm like, oh, I couldn't possibly deal with the pain of this decision or this result. It's like, well, is that worse or better than the pain of not doing that. So, I think another example, like I was talking to a drywall painter or drywall contractor, this was like four or five years ago and he's like, yeah, I can't possibly bring, you know, people in houses W two is because like, you know, the worker's comp would be so high, I'm like, well what's the benefit, does the, does the benefit outweigh the cost?
 
You're telling me you're spending all this money on issues with 10 99 How much does that cost you? How much would it cost you to do, w to payroll taxes and everything, and could you charge more to your clients, with, with the certainty that comes with the control of and all that stuff? I'm just like, I believe you, but just tell me if it's real that did you actually think through this, or you just have emotional trauma over the cost of something? Right? So, a lot of people, sometimes people get loss aversion or emotional trauma, or on the cost, right, firing somebody, uh, you know, giving something away that's in just, you know, dealing with an injustice, all those things, um that cost is real, but does the benefit outweigh it?
 
And that's something that there's always a choice in business in life, There's always a choice. And don't forget the Bennett, don't forget to do the full analysis of weighing things out. You have, you have a choice, you get to make that decision. I mean, that's one of the beautiful things about entrepreneurship, you know, and about business ownership. It, it puts you in the driver's seat and you ultimately get to make your life decisions, yep, yep. Yeah, a lot of it's uh that first principles reasoning approach of, like, what is true, what's actually real?
 
You know, do I have preconceived parameters that I'm operating in? And what if I took those down? What I still come to the same result, um going through that decision matrix, the quicker you can, the quicker you can start, just start with cluelessness as you approach a scenario if you do that like fast. It's not too weird if you get lost in that for a little while people lose faith and trust in your cognitive abilities. So sometimes those parameters that we operate in are useful for external expectations.
 
If you do it quick or do it in private, it's a good model to go through. Um, to just be entrepreneurial, be a little creative digital's preconceived notions and and fear reactions. Elon musk is probably, you know, the most popular first principle reasoning promoter of recent time and you know, probably his, I don't know what would be his biggest success. Uh don't stop, stop, stop emailing me. They're emailing me right now. I can, I can feel it just say the number one thing is how he's approached rockets, right?
 
And so traditionally rockets are very, very expensive, expensive to get payload up into space because you build this super expensive rocket, bring it up into space and that's going to crash into the ground and uh, that costs a lot of money right? To get payload up there. Um, I was like, well that's odd. I mean, no wonder it's expensive. Can you imagine if everyone got into an airplane, we all got into, you know, delta delta airplane got into, I'll you know, seven G whatever it is. And uh you know, we flew over to Albuquerque new Mexico, how it said, alright everybody uh put your backpacks on, we're gonna have you all jump out of the plane and then I'm gonna crash the plane into the crash pit. Right?
 
Imagine how expensive that would be if they crashed the plane every single time you bought a ticket basically paid for the construction of that plane and every single time or every time we drove to the office we like opened the door, rolled out and just crashed it into the crash wall. Yeah, just like this where there's walls at every single building where you crash them really really expensive to drive everywhere. You have to pay for the construction of the vehicle every time or at least the maintenance and repairs or the reconstruction.
 
So um anyways, first principle that you always have a choice. So blue ocean philosophy, transparency, no, no transparency Democratize 1st dictate democracy. Aurelius, Nero America five hard way is a real way. Get out of the ivory tower, get in the mud, the field, put in that work and then number six, there's always a choice. You should go to jail if you have to do whatever I have to man. Yeah, I think is there anything else you want to add anything exceptionally weird because this is a weird one.
 
Um, I think I'm a pretty normal person. I don't think I have anything too weird. Here's something I've been thinking about, okay, here's something we had a little, we had a little christmas party earlier this week and we went bowling classic painters, bowling. And uh, society has like this irrational expectation for what is a good bowling game. Okay. And what is good? Okay. I would say 80 is great if you told me if you're under 103 you're, you're awful. There are 10 pins 100 ft away from me. I've got this ball spare strike.
 
Also, I don't do this every day. And you're telling me that on average, I get eight of the 10 pins to fall down. That's not, that's good. That's not bad. That's good. Also, there's the option of getting a zero because you don't have that much leeway. So it goes into this like zero area. Well, I always play with the bumpers. I don't think that without the bumpers 80 is a good score. I don't care what people say. It's kind of like the fashion industry or the beauty Industry. There's like this unrealistic expectation for women that they have to like put products on their face to be presentable.
 
Uh, and bowling 80 is a good score. You average eight out of 10 pins down. That is fine. Society has unrealistic unrealistic expectations for bowling and I'm gonna stand by that. So everyone here, if you, if you're bowling somewhere near an 80, you're doing. Excellent. Just, just think about eight out of 10 on average, this, these pins are 100 ft away, maybe multiple, 100 ft away. I haven't measured it? You have a ball. And just also remember you don't do this every day. I like you bowl like once every couple of years, maybe you have to throw it and and if it goes too much to the side one way or the other, you get a zero and somehow you still managed to get eight out of 10 pins down on average over 10, Whatever they're called scores.
 
I said, I said they were earlier over 10 frames, so I'm gonna stick by that and I stand by that. I think society is wrong and just applying first principles, reasoning. I think we should reevaluate, you know what the message that we're telling people who bowl like myself, I appreciate that. I'll feel better about myself next time I go bowling now. Sounds good man. All right, this is it man, wrapped up the series, painters, thank you, yep, this is it, thank you Jason for, for your the first one with the first one in season three, you're the first series.
 
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