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Guest Interview: Jason Paris of Paris Painting & Aleph Holdings – Round 2

Jason Paris, founder and co-owner of Paris Painting and Aleph Holdings, discusses his journey from solopreneur to building a highly successful team that runs multiple businesses doing well north of $20 million in annual revenue. Jason takes a deep dive into Aleph Holdings, and an exciting new partnership opportunity that Aleph is now offering to qualified painting company owners who are looking to aggressively grow their businesses. He shares why the painting industry is so ripe for business-minded painting company owners to succeed, and some ways that other company owners can take advantage of current opportunities.

Video of Interview

Topics Discussed:

  • Jason's impressive growth journey, and how bringing on great partners made that possible
  • An amazing opportunity Aleph Holdings is now offering to qualified painting company owners
  • A significant PCA member benefit that few members are taking advantage of
  • Why partnerships are often times the key to massive success
Audio Transcript


Welcome to the Painter Marketing Mastermind Podcast. The show created to help painting company owners build a thriving painting business that does well over one million and annual revenue. I'm your host, Brandon Pierpont, founder of Painter Marketing Pros and creator of the popular pc, a educational series, learn do grow marketing for painters. In each episode, I'll be sharing proven tips, strategies and processes from leading experts in the industry on how they found success in their painting business. We will be interviewing owners of the most successful painting companies in north America and learning from their experiences on this episode of the Painter marketing Mastermind podcast, we host repeat guest Jason paris, the founder and co owner of paris Painting and Olive holdings. Jason discusses his journey from solo preneurs to building a highly successful team that runs multiple businesses doing well north of $20 million in annual revenue. Jason takes a deep dive into all of holdings and an exciting new partnership opportunity that Olive is now offering to qualify painting company owners who are looking to aggressively grow their businesses. He shares why the painting industry is so right for business minded painting company owners to succeed in some ways that other company owners can take advantage of current opportunities if you want to learn more about the topics we discussed in this podcast and how you can use them to grow your painting business, visit painter marketing pros dot com forward slash podcast for free training as well as the ability to schedule a personalized strategy session for your painting company again that you are. L is painter marketing pros dot com forward slash podcast. Jason. Thank you for coming on again to the painter Marketing Mastermind podcast. Here we are. Glad to be back. Here we are. So Jason remind all of our listeners. They probably don't know who you are, Jason paris or paris painting. Who are you? What's your company? What? Uh so I have paris painting out of kind of Minneapolis area of Minnesota. We are a large residential repaint uh contractor. Um that's my company. I am also a person outside of my company. Okay, Jason paris is separate in some ways from paris painting completely separate. Yeah. My identity is not paris painting. It is shares my last name and I started the company. Just kind of found, I found it to start that off. But um I am a father. I'm a husband. I have four kids, been married for 10 plus years. I chair the P. C. A. In my free time to volunteer. I like ultra endurance events. So I did an ironman last year and in one week I'll be doing a 50 mile trail run queuing up for 100 this fall. And what else about me? When I was in middle school when I was a sophomore we moved high schools and I would take my lunch tray and I would sit in the bathroom until the bell rang because I was so had so much social anxiety. I didn't want to sit with anybody actually was mostly scared about sitting by myself at lunch. So I just sit in the bathroom so that last one was going to cut me down its size. I felt like I was breaking a little bit and some of those things, yeah the last one did cut you down pretty effectively I would say. Um It's a sad story, I don't think it's an unusual story. And you got me kind of thinking we should talk about childhood bullying or something but I'm gonna pull it back all the childhood traumas. Yeah that the childhood traumas we all we all have you know terrible parents and childhood. If we allow ourselves to bring it back bring it back in. But yeah. Alright so chair of the P. C. A. You have a large painting company. How large is your painting company? Uh Eight figures. So 10 million top line. We did separate out the handyman division about 3 4 years ago. So we actually acquired a company that was doing about $600,000 of revenue of handyman light remodeling. Um Kind of married the logos together. So pairs paying logos and orange house. There's two great houses and then we started a sister company haven builders. Blue House, Two great houses. That's about $10 million $20 million top line between those two business units. Um And then yeah that's bears painting in a nutshell what we do. So let's talk about olive Holdings and and kind of how that whole thing set up. Yeah so all of Holdings is a holding company. Um That's actually the hat I'm wearing today. That was well timed. Um All it is just the first letter of the hebrew alphabet. So I started this with a bunch of guys about 34 years ago and it was never meant to be the public face but we just rolled with it because it kind of seems like a cool brand at this point. Um But the idea was that there's so much opportunity in the trades that we started holding company that was strictly focused on on trades businesses, small trades businesses and whether they were starting them or acquiring them, bringing them through the professionalization because overall contracting has not gone through its renaissance in the U. S. As opposed to many other industries that have like farming, uh coffee shops, breweries etcetera, have all kind of gone through that professionalization, renaissance contracting has not. So we did that and we formed it in 2019. Uh january 1st about midway through that years when we purchased haven builders, about $600,000 company at that time. Top line revenue. And have since scaled it to looking into eight figures this year, 2020. We purchased a company called paperwork marketing which was a flyer delivery company in the twin cities uh does a lot of work with trade services. So that was a great hire, The Great Purchase one for the higher. So we kind of, in a sense, bought the founder of that company and he's now our director of marketing at All Holdings. And then it was de risking a primary vendor for paris painting and now haven builders to make sure that maintains stability. And then it's just a nice business unit to hold, it's our lowest top line revenue, it's about a million bucks give or take, but it has really nice margins and it's really data intensive sort of like those types of businesses. Um and then January. So I was 2019, The big excitement for 2021 was all purchased, the majority equity in Paris painting. Uh And the way we did that, the way we structured it as I had started an LLC called paris services LLC when I first started with a paintbrush and a dream. And uh we ended up starting a new company called paris painting LLC. And all of holdings, uh got equity in paris painting LLC and paris services has equity in paris painting LLC. But all of holdings is the operating partner, so there are the ones that drive the business and are ultimately responsible for delivering shareholder profits. So at that point I stepped completely out of the company, I no longer had a job at paris painting. Uh But I did go to All Holdings and say, and maybe I could have a job here. And so that's what I do now. I'm one of five primary shareholders for all of holdings. So there are four other guys that we started with and that's the holdings and not quite, that's the start of the nutshell. So then we have, uh, partner companies that were taking a minority stake in initially to help stabilize their asset and scale the revenue. And these are focused to painting companies at the moment. And so there's paintings kind of the operating partner model. We have two painting companies that were minority partnerships in and right now we have three yellow eyes that were in the process of due diligence to see if there's others, they'll be good fits. But that's what we're doing um, through all of ventures, which is owned by all of holdings and all of capital. Um, All adventures could start as a minority equity holder and then tear tear step into a majority owner, at which point it would take over as the operating partner. So that's what we're going to put out a cap table for anyone who's been listening to the, to, uh, all of this so called capital off Holdings. One's all Adventures off Capital is the capital arm of what we do that's investing in small businesses and then doing real estate investment as well. So we have three big apartment bills that we're doing right now. And that's the way that we kind of put our cash to use from the distributions of of the holdings. Nice. So yeah, I I see that I'm actually holding your business card here, Jason. Well there it is, my virtual screws it up. You are. Well it doesn't actually say your official title says Jason, paris, synergy and memes, that's what I do. Yeah. So you're about the synergy and actually familiar with synergy, I don't know about synergy, I know a little bit about me, I think I think my sister sent me a meme one time. So I kinda know something about those. You taught me how to how to short coat them um on the phone, which I didn't know how you could do that. So that was kind of neat. Yes, you're good at the synergy in the meat. Um So I wanna, I want to kind of in the whole uh segment that you just gave there, which was impressive. One thing really stood out to me. So you bought haven builders In January of 2019. That was like June like June July. So it started off holdings in January 1st 2019 when all of holding started and you bought it in the middle of 2019 and then the military 19. We bought off holdings bought haven builders. So in under three years you've taken it from 600 K. To 10 million, yep. That's pretty good. And what you're saying is that we also did the same thing with paris painting. Just maybe another, Yeah, what, so what what's the time exact timeline there? I used to have it on my white board so I have to go, I have to go backwards. So 10 eight 54321 ah Probably like 2017, 2018. So basically in 4 to 5 years you took paris painting from one to over 5 to 65 to six from one to over 10 And haven builders and I did not take it there just to be clear, this is 100% in Paris did it and some other guys kind of watched no, just kidding, just kidding. I know one of your, one of your superhuman skills is is being able to get out of the way and hire people who are better than you. I think that might be my skill, I am trying to figure out my superpower. Getting all the way, seems to be something I'm pretty good at. Not always good at that, I'm not that good at it though, but I do run a lot, you know I do run a lot but I think getting out of the way, there is certainly a skill set in having the ability to initiate something and start it and then acknowledge that you're not gonna be the sustainer and having the humility to step away and let someone else take those reins and that's a hard thing to do. I think that's a hard thing to do, I've been doing it pretty consistently for a while and it spread a lot of success for both myself and others. Um, yeah, it's not super common in the trades. Yeah, well, yeah, there's, there's so much, I think entrepreneurs in general, but maybe even more so a little bit in the trades, kind of the, the pride, you know, this is kind of an odd thing. You take. Someone that was like, wow, you have a really novel skill set, you founded a company and over five years got it to like good sustainability, like that is not many humans on the planet can do that, entrepreneurs are very well rewarded because it's a very unique skill set in the society. Um, it would be even more bizarre and more unique if you were good at that and you were also the right person to scale it into maturity. Sometimes those are like opposite skill sets, right? The founder, you have to be good at pretty much everything. You can't have many weak spots or blind spots because you're going to just get destroyed by those as you're going through founding and then you have to have a high tolerance for pain. But if you want to scale something to maturity, you have to be hyper good at your specific role, whatever that is in the organization at that time and in a lot of ways you want someone who has a low tolerance for pain because they're gonna want to professionalize it and scale it and start packing together. And I was not that person in my company. And I find it odd that people automatically assume that they're the right person at each scale the company. Yeah, yeah. The the, the personality traits are definitely very different and, and the requirements for skill. And I think, you know, there's this idea of, there's a lot of times it comes down to control. You know, you are willing to give up equity and control, um, in certain ways to grow your business and ultimately achieve much more success. And do you want to maintain all of a small pie or smallish pie? Are you willing to maybe embrace um, these skill sets and know how people who maybe are better in certain ways or have more experience than you do in certain ways to ultimately magnify the size of your pie and still maintain a good percentage. It was like a funny, uh, I've kind of, I've gone through the year by your examples. I talk to people like being at three million, then four million, then five million. And after the $5 million 50% of Paris services, LLC's steak and Paris painting LLC to all of holdings. And what do you know? That's the year we go from 5 to 8.3. And uh, it's not a shock. It's I have very aligned and incentivized partners and shareholders that want to drive the value of this asset independent of my energy and efforts. And there's something novel and unique to that where you kind of lockdown, there's really no flight risk in the organization and there are a lot of people that are really, really good at carrying the burden. So I don't have to. And those are, those are novel things. Yeah. So let me ask you this, you, you mentioned that you guys, you have three letter letters of intent out there with potential painting partners. You have to already that you've invested into and that, that you're providing the systems for what do you look for in a partner. Yeah. So I mean, you kind of boiled down from its most fundamental concept of holdings is looking to make good investments, right? And so what makes good investment? It's something that there's an existing business and a base where we can step in and provide a lot of value and we are really, really, excuse my language, were really freaking good at scaling companies and professionalizing them. There's a lot of value and acknowledgement to someone that's got it through the start up phase. And what off holdings is not looking to do is to go into city y and start a company from scratch. There's a lot of brain trauma that happens in being the domain expert for that geography and uh, and building a brand and getting the, the building blocks of good people started. We want to take those building blocks and scaled professionalization and uh, that's what we're really good at. So fundamentally looking to make good investments where we see the foundations of a business that we can no, we know we can lean in and provide the value Cause we're gonna come in and purchase 40% equity of this business. And uh, we only, it's only a good deal for us if the value increases, if it does not, it's what we call a bad deal or a bad investment. So fundamentally, that's kind of what you look for. We are domain experts experts in residential repaint. So we love that that business. Um, and kind of last thing is this is a partnership model. So it's not coaching is not Franchising. It's partnering, which is pretty Intimate. You get yoked up with someone pretty intensely for for at least 3-5 years. And uh, we're looking to work with people that we want to work with just to call a spade a spade. There's a lot of good businesses out there. Um, there's a lot of interesting financials out there, but it's kind of like what do you want to invite into your life and who do you want to take on as a partner? So that's certainly there's an element of that too because it was kind of a cultural fit, personality fit of value alignment. Yeah, there's kind of like um there's actually, there's a guy that's gonna be visiting us next week and hopefully he listens to. This will be funny but we are not the same people at all. Uh We don't have the same belief structures but we both have the same values and uh it's kind of like their values align and we don't have to be the same. People don't have to like doing the same things but ultimately is it going to work out as a partnership if we have to have our same values? Yeah. Yeah, values is key, is there a specific size company that you look for? You know, we're definitely feeling that out Brandon. So we're like a few quarters into this right now and uh you know I'd say it's You kind of like need $1 million but I don't know where the sweet spot is. That three million is kind of nice because then it's like at that point the owner has gotten the concept that I have to let go of some things in my business as they start to scale. You can go and even theory, you could still be at three million be hands on micromanaging everything, but they're starting to let go of some stuff a little bit. Um I don't know, I don't know what the magic number is. There's not like a hard uh profile or what do you call it? Marketing call it like a, an avatar, it's not like a strong avatar, we've built out, we're kind of seeing like somewhere between like a million dollars plus. Uh there's different, there's actually different profiles. There's the person who's hungry up and running and they want to take on a partner because they've gone through the pain to get to a million bucks and they recognize that there's, you know, five different pain points, they're gonna have to go through to get to sustainability and they want a partner to do that with them. That's one of our partners we've taken on, there's the, hey, I want to be, don't want to work that hard. I've got a pretty comfortable lifestyle but I want more from my people. Alright, that's another model. That's a different profile, that seems to work well, there's, I'm ready to disengage in the company? It's probably gonna die in the next five years. I'll sell my client list and ladders or I could take on a partner, potentially we get this thing to stabilize and scale and I could have passive equity for the rest of my life at a minority interest, minority interest level. So those seem to be three that we've found so far. Uh come back to me in a year and I'll give you a much more polished answer, but that's been going off the cuff. Yeah. Okay, great. And then for anyone who's listening, who maybe does um fit one of these profiles and is in that revenue range where it might make sense. Is there a way that they can reach out to you or your team or or someone just reach out to me? I mean, this is probably the first actually called the Action thing I've ever done uh because it's been pretty like if, you know, you know, if you don't, you don't because we're not looking to blow it up. Crazy. It's partnership, not those other models I mentioned. So we do have to be a little careful and how fast we go because they require a lot of, a lot of work. So I'm always happy to talk to painters and about what's going on their business and help them out as much as I can, but certainly reach out to me if you think that's an interesting concept and I'll be brutally honest of this is probably not a good fit right now, but here's where it would be a good fit if you get to this mark. Um yeah, they just reach out to me, uh what what what what would be the best social media would be the best way to contact you? Social media is great, yep. So Jason paris like the city. Um you can also email me Jason at all if a l e p h a hyphen mgmt dot com. Either one works awesome. So you being the chair of the P. C. A. I don't want to a lot of our listeners are already in the Pc or at least they subscribe to overdrive. But I guess maybe let's let's touch base briefly on on the expo and what we can expect in Albuquerque next year. And kind of some of the, the benefit, maybe maybe what you see going well with the P. C. A. And maybe even for members who are, who are already in the P. C. A. What what could they be capitalizing on more of that that you think they're kind of leaving on the table in terms of value? Yeah. Well, I'd say for expo, uh, if you did not come to Orlando this year, you missed out. And I think people have picked up that, that, that's kind of been put out there pretty heavily. Uh, Oh, you missed out. Yeah, for sure. I mean it was, it was off the hook, as the kids say, New Mexico, we're certainly looking to anti that up level that up. So build off the momentum. We actually had a phenomenal expo in 2020. It was right right before Covid ended up hitting in 2020. And uh, we're pretty bummed to lose that momentum in 2021 were really picked it up this year in 2022. So 2023 2023 Albuquerque New Mexico. It's gonna be a real banger. It's gonna be a fun time and it's the one event you don't want to miss throughout the year if you're a painting contractor. Um some things that the PC is doing really well right now, I think we want to go hard on events. I know we want to go hard on events this year. That's been something that we've missed over the last 18 months. Call it uh two years seemingly and it's something we do really, really well. So I want to lean in heavy on events. The education is a big part of what the PCH provides. So part of that is through just content that we pump out a lot of that's free the industry, but there's member specific training. I hope people are aware of that. They have access to both on the technical side of painting. So training of painters but also soon to be released, the business side both accessible through what's called the Learning management Software or learning management system. Um Those are cool things also. So you have like those things are going well with the PC. A. I'll do a couple more but it wouldn't be probably unfair for me. It's not say what's going poorly with the P. C. A. We need to do a better job of promoting and uh also asking our partners to help us promote all the value that we're starting to do in the association. The PCA has gotten a pretty pretty fun injection of of energy over the last couple of years and we want to ride that momentum and ride that wave. Um, but I was gonna say the health insurance thing is a great example of that. I don't know if PC A members realize or know that their membership gives them access to a group bartered a plan for health insurance and that is like very not easy to do. Uh, I was very skeptical that we could do it, I'll be honest. And that we got across the finish line was pretty surprising. I have only so far and I'm open to feedback. I've only heard good data points from people who have tried it out Both in the 80s. So health insurance is typically a very difficult thing to do for your business, but the ease of what you can do it and then the affordability and the, like the ease or the common understanding of the options are available. It's not super complicated. They provide a lot of options, but they're easy to understand. Yeah. Yeah. You don't, there's, it, there's a, what is it, the health insurance marketplace, I would spend days on that thing. You know, comparing, you picked the three plans and then you go back in the day. Yeah. Once I actually got up and work and then you have 75 different roads to compare. I mean, I was overwhelming and they got like 200 plans to pick from and that was really something, but the PC is super cool. It's a people who don't know, it's a nonprofit. Um So it's it's underwritten by every every major paint manufacturer underwrites the programs that we put out as well as a lot of other industry partners that are involved with painting as well. And that combined with being a nonprofit, we're able to offer a lot to the membership and the industry at large for not much cost. And it's a pretty cool thing to be a part of. It's a way to give back way to volunteer. Um Most of the people pretty much the whole ethos is really what I call cooperative mission, helping one another as opposed to painting can be kind of a weird industry where historically it's been a little aggressive regressive, where it's more combative and uh head on. I don't want to help my competitor down the street, he's taking food off my family's plate. Uh If he does better, I do poor. And uh that's that's just not reality in this industry. It's so fragmented. It's more of a, we all do better when we all do better mentality. Yeah. And and that's one of the themes that I've noticed with the P. C. A. Is people joining, recognized that when your competitor professionalize is his or her business and goes in and starts to get the homeowner or the commercial business owner, whoever comfortable and accustomed to interact with painters like that. The whole industry gets raised and and profit margins get raised and and employment becomes less of an issue because you can pay people more and it benefits, it doesn't hurt you. Yeah. It's a standard. What is the standard for hiring a painting contractor right now? We're joking before we started this. Like if you show up, if actually if anybody shows up to a home and says I paint there's a good chance they'll make that sale right? That's kind of what the standard is right now. They don't even have to string together full sentences. Just say, just say I paint, they'll probably sell the job and then they may or may not show up on time and may or may not do the right things. And and that's certainly a challenge for what the expectation of a homeowner is when you're trying to run a professional business. You mentioned the part about being able to pay labor. Well, another part of that is just treating labor well, right, Well, it's no surprise that we are having a labor shortage in this industry. Why on God's Green Earth, would anybody want to get into being a painting contractor? For most of these painting companies just to call a spade a spade. The industry is highly fragmented and un professionalized and most people that go to work for somebody do not have uh an a plus experience and they quickly get out and they kind of um message or propagate that tarnish on the industry that they experienced. Part of that is how how their clients are treated, but a big part of that is how the labor is treated. Yeah, yeah. Happy, happy employees. Or even if they're subcontractors, happy workers make for happy customers. Yeah. Yeah, Absolutely. And then how is the business treated too? I would say that's another big part of it, right? It's ah it's all kind of cyclical and it's all tied together of the industry has had a tough time because it hasn't been professional, right? And you have a lot of painting owners who get to the end of their their business cycle and they are grumpy burnt out and don't have much to show for it. And uh that's kind of a stereotype of the industry, but the stereotypes exist for a reason and it's like, shoot, how do you attract good uh you know, top level business talent into this industry when that's the expectation, I'll just tell you, you're not, you're not going to so you have to change that paris that perspective in that paradigm to say this is an industry that has a lot of opportunity, you can build not just a good job for yourself, but a good business and at the end of your business cycle, you can have something real to show for it that's going to attract great people or to run their business in extremely professional ways. They're gonna treat their labor well treat the clients well and under those conditions, the industry goes through its renaissance. I think that's gonna happen, I don't know if it's in the next five years, I don't know if it's the next 20 years. Obviously with all of holdings, we believe strongly enough that that's where I'm stacking my personal chips and what's going to happen and I want to be a part of that wave. But the industry is about to go through this renaissance. It feels like it's almost like if you go to when I did the pc a presentation down Orlando, I talked about if you go to invest Topia dot com, you talk about what are the, you know textbook conditions that you look for when an industry is about to go through this wave of professionalization, highly fragmented industry success in challenges and uh I forgot what the other ones were because I'm so excited cash flow, but it doesn't require much capital. So it's low barrier to entry, highly fragmented Succession challenges and all throughout the 4th 1, which is, it has like societal downward pressure. Alright, so some industries that have upwards societal upward pressure, like Working at a tech startup or most blue for for a while, you're arguing like the 20s and 2010. So I was working at, you know the blue chip companies like you go to the it's kind of the concept that you go to the thanksgiving family dinner, it was like johnny, what are you doing these days like well I'm a I'm trying to think of something funny and I'm obviously not good on the front, like I'm I'm a, I'm an account manager at X Y Z firm and what does that really mean? That he does, he's making minimum wage, doing paperwork, right? And let's give him the next time or you go to thanksgiving and you say, oh, I started a painting company, right? One of those has upward societal pressure, another has downward societal pressure. And those would be like the four factors you'd say, wow, this, this is about to tip over and you do want to press on every single one of those levers. If you can to get to go through his professionalization shift, maybe not every single one, maybe take one of them out there, but if you can touch on every other lover, what do you? So when you say, what do you mean, press on each of those levers? Yes, you talk about the industry being uh, success and challenges, right? Great minds are not entering into the painting industry. So the painting industry is typically, you are found, you're not finding so people are not seeking out the painting industry and saying, I found this and I went to go find something and this is where my land on doing because I see great opportunity. It's typically you hear two stories of how people got into it. I did this in college or my dad was a painter. Yeah, it's kind of like two things and how you get started. It's typically the fallback option, not where people kind of jump into it. One of the biggest reasons for that is there's nothing to show really at the end of your business. It's a very there's very there's a lot of difficulty in realizing the value of your equity. There's not much liquidity in a painting company. You can sell your client list, you can maybe sell your ladders and tools. But the typical model, the typical pro profile is you build a job not a business that has value that has inherent value, inherent equity. So I think that's an important thing to change an important thing to shift if you want to see the industry go through its renaissance and obviously that's a big part of what I'm trying to do and push on just to be transparent. The apartment would be go ahead. No, no, please that I'll follow up. I mean part of that too is just the highly fragmentation of the industry, right? And you have a lot of it's a low barrier to entry. I actually don't think that it's a good thing to change that, but that's the one level that I want to to not not step on because there's a beauty to that and that it's really an entrepreneur's dream. It's a double sided dream or double sided sword where that low barrier to entry anyone can jump in at the same time anyone can jump in. Right? So you get a lot of success stories of like I started with nothing, I had nothing painting gave me the opportunity and I built a big business and I built this for my life, right? So you can have you don't want to you don't want to lose that. And with that I think part of comes like people can just step in and do whatever they want. There's no barrier, right? But you want a societal barrier where there's higher standards and higher expectations for if you show up to a bed and you don't have, you're s h blank t together, right? You should not get hired. And that that's what that's what all opinion contractors complain about is this kind of underdog or this this kind of undercutting of of pricing where contractors come in and they do out of business pricing because the average paying company doesn't last three years. That's when they find out what taxes are and so their pricing themselves to go to business but setting a standard for the industry and that's what a lot of people complain about. Do you think that that is? I mean, do you think that makes it harder to succeed as a painting company owner? No. So right now all of this uh you could it's certainly not a in some ways it's not positive, right? Because you have to overcome that. It's a tough thing, it would be much better if the industry was had a higher standard for everybody for the clients, for the, for the labor, for the business owner and how they're, they're kind of running their business and the expectations they have. But this is not a hard industry to be successful in. I'll just be honest with you. It is uh, we do, I had way more success than I probably deserved in life because I was in the right place at the right time. And painting is if you show up and you don't, if you do not go into rehab, your first five years running opinion company, there's a really good chance you're gonna make a lot of money, right? And you don't even have to be able to string a full sentence together if you don't, you don't have to be a phenomenal leader. There's so much demand for professional painting services and there's such a lack of supply. This started arguably in 2008 when the recession hit and a bunch of supply left the market and never came back, never came back. It was already an issue. Then it got boom big issue. And since that both curves have been getting larger and larger apart. You have more boomers retiring millennials are the worst. They don't want to do anything hard. So they're not starting in, they're not getting into painting right, They're not getting into the trades. So you have that demographic issue and then the millennials that do get good jobs that are not in the trades, they buy houses and they want stuff done for them. But they don't wanna do it. They don't want to paint their own house, right? They want to hire that service more and more, demand less and less supply. And it's kind of like, it's just like, that's another thing you talked about the industry. It's like when you have those to market conditions, that is a recipe for profit. And at some point outside business minds and outside capital gets really excited about that and they come in and go and the industry goes through renaissance and it hasn't had that happen yet. And that's where it's like, you definitely look at this industry and you see it's on the precipice of having a crest. Yeah. So what is your goal with Olive holdings when, when you're making these investments, are you, are you planning to keep the investments long term and until this renaissance occurs or what is your kind of endgame here with this? Yeah. So the goal when you make an investment is you want to increase the value and have stability. Those two things are not super common in painting companies and we feel like we're really, really good at that. And as a even as a minority partner, we can step in and have that mutual incentive with a founder. So ultimately we want to increase the value more profitability, but also a big thing of stability, if we're gonna make that investment, we don't want it to be like, oh, shoot founder or got hit by a turkey truck or founder decided he doesn't wanna do this anymore. And now the asset has no value. That's like, that's a bad day. Yeah, we want to do that. But then also, you know, kind of give that concept of, of liquidity in people's equity, right? That's not like a huge concept that people have, where they think I can build something and be a multi millionaire because I built the company, most people are thinking, oh, I can build something and have an okay job the rest of my life and hopefully my kids want to take it up. Hopefully one of my, my employees want to buy this company and they end up being the operator. Um, I think that that is one of the triggers. If you talk about what, what kind of has that big shifter professionalization is when people can start to realize liquidity and their equity, that just is going to change how they approach their companies. Yeah. Yes. So I went on your site and I was kind of looking and it looks like you guys have, um, and I know it's, it's still early, you know, it's probably still a little bit fluid, but you guys had a, had a pretty kind of sometimes, Well, no, I wasn't talking about the type, I'm talking about the system that you guys have, like, you're gonna have these meetings, you're gonna put your operating system. I'm wondering if if anyone listening, who, who thinks this might be a fit, what does it look like if they partner with you, what do you what do you give them, you know, in exchange for for 40% of the company, what can they expect? Yeah, let's say we buy 40% of the company. We don't wanna, it's not you're not just getting it, no one gives, no one just gets equity in the company, It would have to be invested in, it would have to be bought. Um now when we make that investment, we're pretty incentivized to make sure that that's a good investment. And the way we have to do that and keep going back to is like, we have to increase the profitability and we have to make the company stable. So we have some rhythms of how we can do that. Now, if we're gonna be the minority operator were coming as you know, mostly an advisory role, but most people, so coaching is fantastic. I love coaches. I have a lot of great friends who are coaches, Sometimes people don't want to coach, They want someone to do it with them, right, They want a partner. And so it's like we build that well, we need to build out the plan idea where the big gaps are, the big issues are. And one of the things that the founders gonna address one of the things where they really need off to come in and step in and say, I would rather that you guys tackle this big rock of development, right? Maybe somebody's never, you know, truly hired and trained a sales rep who doesn't come with domain expertise. It's like, cool. I, I could really use you guys as helps in doing that. Obviously you have the playbook and you're learning and you're learning management software and your custom software that you've built out. But uh, this, I need you to do with me. And so it's just to be frank, it's a little bit more custom fit to each role, um, to teach business depending on what their needs are. So you go in and you basically work with them to come up with some sort of valuation Of what their company is worth. You, you pay them essentially around 40% of the evaluation and then you are now on board with them, them still being the primary owner operator decision maker and you're on board to basically plug in any holes that they have any assistant. A lot of it sometimes as a minority partner, it's even like, hey, this is not my fault that the company is here, but it is my problem, right? It's like everything becomes your problem now you have and it's kind of like a good partner to have share your problems. Here's a, here's a partnership that has scaled a company from low single digits to eight figures, low six figures to eight figures and just a handful of years. And uh, I said that wrong, those seven figures, eight figures anyways. It's a company that's scales from, from Haven is another another one I just, I do want to caution because I think we're domain experts in painting and I'm not like we're not buying spray foam companies or garage door companies or anything like that. We're just focused on paintings. I think that's our domain expertise for at least a while for a long time and I'm one of one of five seats on the board that makes those decisions. But ah, I was gonna say what we're talking about. It's not your problem. It's not your, not your fault, but it's your problem. You gotta figure it out Now at some point, it may make sense for everybody to say If we're going to scale this, you know, from 5 to 10 might make sense for all to become, not just an advisory partner that plugs in holes, but to become the true operator and become the operating partner and allow the founder to get completely passive where they could take either a niche role in their company had, you know, coach or advocate or whatever and get kind of a salary that they see fit or maybe they want to take the Jason paris route and get completely passive in their company and only take distributions and that's the route that I took and and I certainly can cut, I can give you more stories about, about middle school and high school to cut myself down. But I think we are going to create themselves, Jason, you have a very important role, make way more impassive distributions now that I've let go than I would ever be making if I were a full time active role in paris painting, right? And that's not to brag or to be um the opposite of humble, but just to paint the picture and tell a story that there is a lot of value and a lot of leverage that comes when we start to utilize partnerships. It's that if that's the path that someone wants to go down and a lot of people, they want a lifestyle business and they want to say I'm the boss, I'm the man, this is paris painting and I'm mr paris and and I'm gonna I'm gonna, you know, run this company until I die. And I and I might have been able to get $234 million on my own without any help. I am certainly not the person to get to be a $10 million company. That's I what I don't know if I could do that, even if I could, I don't want to I don't want that weight and I don't want that pressure. So yeah, those are some, some thoughts on kind of what you get out of it. So some of the things that, that kind of the big takeaways I just took from that is the huge benefits someone could expect is basically they're going to essentially able to get some cash for all the work that they put in to date so far because you're gonna value their company and write them a fairly sizable check. You know, to the partner, they're going to now have a, a seasoned huge team. Um, that is domain experts to solve problems for them, which I can tell you that a lot of those problems, they don't even know what they are yet because they're not that size. Yeah. And you can do that advisory or maybe we need to step in and do it. That's kind of parts like we can help you like around the corner. It's nice to have a partner who can see around the corner and see through the fog. Yeah. When you're about to enter into something you've never done before. Uh, it's also valuable as they have a partner that can step in and do it with me if you have to. And then they are also going to, um, potentially have the option for a full buy out later on for or to get into basically a distribution over. They don't have to do anything. You could certainly, and that's Kind of to the founders decisions and choices. They could do a full buyout where they sell 100% of the company. I would probably recommend not selling 100% because these are pretty good cash cows and keep on keeping my own minority interests and just take those distributions for life. That's another option. Yeah. And typically you talked about like the purchase initially what's been interesting in the handful that we've done and, and most of the ones we've looked at for the first time, the founder ends up getting a competitive salary for their role, which is even though they get competitive because that's how we like to run businesses, we like to have stability. We don't like flight risks. So founder may not sit in that spot always, but don't want to build a business model that's architected around martyrdom that's not a good asset. And so they get a welcome save role and then on top of that they get their distributions when there's profitability. So typically there's kind of this head trash thing of like, well, You know, I had 100% of the pie and now now I'm losing, I'm losing 40% of the pie and losing its scarcity, it's gone. It'll never one way to think about it. That's certainly one way to think about another way to think about it is you're getting a compensation package for the first time in your life that actually equaled the profitability of your company in the years past. And so everything above and beyond that is upside and you know, have partners that are gonna help you drive that pretty quickly, especially if you want to look at this over the long haul about how stable it is. And I'm not trying to talk people into this. This is like you're actually asking a lot of program questions. I'm just trying to be honest with you on it. But this is not for everybody. We're certainly not interested in every business. I hope that more companies do what we're doing just for the industry's sake. There's not many holdings companies that are coming in as a, as an advisory partner and purchasing equity, uh, with the option to lean in and help scale scale their business. Um, I hope that's not the case five years from now. I hope there's a lot more people that do that because I think that's going to have a positive impact on the industry being viewed as a business, not just owning a job which can can kind of go into those unintended consequences that we talked about for both the client and the and the labor. Yeah. So you mentioned, uh, the value in having a partner that kind of see around the corner because they've been there. They've seen those problems. I would love to get your thoughts. Um, because a lot of people don't know what those problems are. You know, if you, if you've never played at that level, you can't know it. So when, when you went, you know, let's say from one million Now doing north of 10 million, what are a couple of the themes that you've noticed, like the company of law? Yeah, I would say, man, a lot of that is structure, some of that structure, some of that's personnel, some of that operating system and that can be tech, that can be rhythms. Um, there's so many when you talk about seeing around the corner, so we, so we, we like the value of small businesses are focusing the trades, but we also really like real estate. So we're building these apartment buildings and in southern Minnesota, we've partnered with the construction company that has done this many times before because we don't know what we don't know. And just to be frank with you, we don't want to find out the hard way. And that's the, that's the risk of doing it on your own. You can certainly have a larger pieces to buy. It just might be a lot more painful to get there and take you a lot longer. Uh, so like there's nothing in business than I do, whether it's real estate or running the actual operations of the company that's not without partners because I like to do things fast and with less risk, I'm fine, not having every single piece of the pie, if I wanted everything, I would do it over a long period time, it would be pretty risky, right? And that's not, that's not my personal profile. Uh yeah, that, that thought of like it just, it just kind of reminded me when you said like having someone who can see around the corner and see through the fog, it's like, that's, that's actually what we do in real estate right now is we want to learn, we want to learn that stuff. I'm willing to give up sizable profits and equity to learn those things because that's not something that I'm really excited to deal with. The mistakes on my own kind of drinking, drinking your own kool Aid here just in a different industry that you don't have that expertise and you will love this opportunity, right? And then, and whether it's a different industry or different stage of business, there's a couple ways to look at it in a lot of ways. You know, an $8 million painting company is like a different industry than a $2 million painting company, right? That is not the same company at all. And you may be a domain expert and have a really comfortable to $3 million company that's a lifestyle business that's like, hey, it spits off some nice cash, um, pretty passive in it. But I want to see more from my people, I want the company to grow so that they have more opportunity and it's kind of like, hey, I'll paint me a picture where I can make more cash than I am now and be more passive business gets larger? And that creates opportunity for Mikey people. What does that look like? Yeah, yeah, yeah, it makes sense, man. So you, you meant, well you're a bit of an anomaly. I just want to point this out, Jason. I mean in many ways I think, you know that, but you, you say like I, I wanted the quick, the quick route, you know, not not the long, painful route, but then you do 100 mile runs that seem to be all about the long, painful route. I have really figured out how to rectify that in the reality of like, so I'm talking about collapsing time. Uh I'm in this for the long haul, right? It's just, I don't want to, so what, how can I translate that over to running? Um I would not want to like try and figure out what a good training plan is for running. I'm like willing to hire a coach to help me train. Um I see there's some metaphors that will break apart pretty quick there, but the idea of like, I don't wanna, I don't wanna do a lot of risky things. I'd rather have a lot more stability in life and I'm willing to share. There's also this concept of uh some of the someone that one of the biggest drivers to be successful in life is to share that success with others. And like for me, it's what other way, is there any other better way to share that than through partnerships right? It's like I've got four of my best friends in this office and all of our lives are going pretty awesome. It's pretty fun deal right now. I would not be doing anywhere nearly as well without those guys, but it's kind of like, well I could have my own little business and then like maybe I did crush it on my own and I did want to go through all that pain and it took me three decades and now it's like how do I share that with others? Like wow, I wish I could go back 20 years and we could do this together, that's what I would do. I'd like to try and buy a time machine and go back in time and be like, hey man, I want you to experience what it's like to build equity alright. I want you to experience what it's like to have a, have an asset in your life that outweighs your liabilities and that's kind of, that's one of the drivers is one of the most motivating parts of success is the ability to share success with others. Yeah. Yeah. You know, once you get past a certain level and kind of like um was it? Matthew? Matthew loves hierarchy of needs, what's his mas Los Mas hierarchy Pavlov, you have Pavlov's dog, I was combining them, I guess? Yeah, dog, the bell. Um, yeah, once you get, once you get past that sort of hierarchy, you know, at some point it's kind of, what's the point if you have, your needs met, your, your Children's needs met. Um, what's driving, you know, when you get to that level of success, it oftentimes about helping others and I like now playing with partnerships is, I certainly benefit from them too. You can look at all of holdings to like all of holdings when they come into these painting companies off holdings is designed to have incentives to benefit. But the founder disproportionately disproportionately will benefit as well. And so it's not like pure altruism. Part of it is just aligning the incentives of life that's saying, hey, I only win when you win more. That's a great partnership, right? And that's how I try to approach all my partnerships, where it's like I will only win when my partner was win more. Yeah, if every partner has that attitude, you can get a lot of good synergy, bring it all the way back energy there there. Now we get it all right now, that's why you have it on your business card. Have you heard of the book, slipstream by Benjamin hardy, I'm gonna send it to you. I sent it to nick didn't respond. So I'm not sure he's, he doesn't know how to read. So yeah, I didn't send him the audiobook. So, but yeah, it's, it's all about collapsing time. I'm not even sure. It's a real book, it was written on Kickstarter. I read it for the first time, I think like 10 years ago. Um, one of the most interesting and best books I've ever read. So that's any slipstream by Benjamin hardy. If you, if anyone listening, Yeah, it's not my, there's like, there's nothing that I say that I typically your favorite, It's all been set under the sun before that concept of collapsing time. I stole that from people who have set up before 100%. Well, we, we can try to say something unique and I'm pretty sure we can spend our whole life trying to think of that and we will never get there, yep. Yeah, efficiency. Um, Okay, so you, you had said that if you were working yourself at this point, you would maybe be at three million or four million, you, you would be unhappy probably. Um, but I'm really interesting. It might be a sweet business that I'm passive in, but it would be a lifestyle business, It would be different than owning an asset. I want to figure out exactly where you think and then this might be a tough question, but what were the holes that kind of got plugged or are the people that I went in and did stuff that, you know, you wouldn't have been able to do as well and that's, that really propels the growth, that's super easy. That's not a hard thing to see. I don't think I'm, there's a lot of things I'm not amazing at. I just don't hope to hate to burst people's bubbles that think I'm like a god or something. But Jason, I'm not, nope, definitely not. I mean you can take every single key role in our company. I am not a great VP of sales. I don't like salespeople, they drive me nuts, they're so needy and they're not compliant and it just drives me crazy. But our VP of sales, Micah, this is like his gifting, he, the way he corrals these cats and gets them to produce at amazing metrics. That is, I mean I could never do that, I'll never do that. I also like, I like Excel spreadsheets, I'm pretty good. I have a pretty, everyone likes my quirky keyboard. It's got all these weird things to on it and uh but eric, our CFO, he is on a world class different level than I am. I mean the things that he does and the way he's on top of everything and ties altogether and I'm not that I'm not that I'll just be honest, I'm not that you can even go all the way to our President Alex. I'm a pretty good leader of people at times at times. I think I'm a pretty good leader of people. But Alex is a savant at just that you take each one of those people to like Micah not great with finances, like eric not great, like being a president, like Alex Alex not great at what Micah does not like all these guys, they're just so specialized in their roles and that's where I look at myself and I'm like, I'm a good founder, I'm pretty good at everything, but I'm not hyper specialized, it's hard to be good everything. And also hyper specialized in being a VP of sales. CFO president of a company. Even you say, like even being a ceo visionary is a hyper specialized skill set and for me it's been super easy also because that's not what I want to do. I don't like carrying the weight of all those things. Each one of those roles has a lot of weight to it. And if I have a choice to not carry that weight, just my personal preferences, I'd rather not, I'd rather dedicate more time to my family, to my hobbies to giving back right now I choose the pc as a vehicle to do that. Those are things that I would rather do if I don't have to and for me it's been fortunate and I think that is the beauty of partnerships where actually do better and I get more, the more that I give up. Yeah, yeah, I love that it's a win. Win, everybody is winning. So one of the, I guess what, what I'm hearing you say is one of the biggest changes from, let's say $234 million company to a 10 plus million dollar company is you have to get more people who are hyper specialized as the company grows. Yeah, that's a great way of like framing in all that, all that jibber jabber I threw out there. Exactly, yeah, I just, you know, so many very few of our listeners are gonna be at that eight figure mark. Right? So I wanna, yeah, I want to kind of try to break it down for people like, hey, here's what you know, and you and you say there's also were eight figures at residential repaint. I've seen companies scale pretty large with pretty simplistic uh infrastructure models in commercial and industrial. Um, but you think residential, it it requires more. In terms of the order chart, you do you need a more sophisticated or chart to org chart to scale residential for sure. And why would you just because the sheer volume of jobs because they're lower ticket jobs? Yes, that's the fundamental principles. You just have more, you need more, I mean, average job size would be the key metric. Right? So you need more sales reps more project managers, more coordination, more moving puzzle pieces Then if your average job sizes 60 grand, Just a different, some would say it's different by a factor of 10. So if someone were running a strictly commercial business, you think, Do you think they might be able to get to 10 plus and not really have all that, you could actually probably steal a commercial company quite large as a, as a lifestyle business. It's more about what is the maturity of the asset? And is it stable? Is their true flight risk? Is there's like a founder's risk in that you almost want to separate the hats that you wear in your company because you're probably the founder and the president and the shareholder, if you put your investor hat on and look at the company objectively and say, is this a good investment? Mm hmm. You know what, if myself decided that I don't want to show up in two years and, and get, you know, we have a, we have a flight risk right now. We have a president who admit that he goes out. Uh, this company is not worth anything. Uh, that's one of its like an investor's mindset of how to analyze the company and it's healthy to do that as yourself, even if you're the sole sole owner now, it's difficult when you're the sole owner to feel the true weight of fiduciary responsibility. That's just not a natural thing. That's not inherent thing for any human to do if they don't have to. So part of that plays out. We talked about the martyrdom that people live with and that martyrdom can be more than just financial, right? It can be the martyrdom that you put on with some of the inefficiencies in your business? some of the unhealthy cultures that can creep in um the passivity or the kind of familiarity with comfort that inhibits growth and development. All those things can be a sense of martyrdom that you carry because you are the only one. You don't, you don't have any accountability, you're outside of yourself and so you kind of don't really feel the weight of that responsibility, whether its fiduciary or all those other elements I listed when you take on a partner, that paradigm shifts a little bit, a little bit. It's no longer what will I tolerate? It's what's what's best for the company, what's best for the business? Yeah. Like I, and you and I was joking, you know, Jason paris was not paris painting, but I think so many people do the largest shareholder, so I'm pretty have an influence there, but I do not run the day to day operations, but but there's so much ego oftentimes wrapped up, you know, within a, within a painting business. And one of the things I'm hearing you say is, yeah, you have more of a fiduciary duty, but you're also almost able to, to differentiate, you know, kind of put the business as its own thing that you focus on outside of yourself because now there are multiple vested interest in this thing. Yeah, it's, and that's I think that's ultimately what builds stable assets, right? It's kind of easy to close one eye and squint out the other. When it's just you. Uh, but when you have those responsibilities, you just, everything becomes very transparent and there's a lot more accountability that comes into place and that can be for everyone's benefit. So you've mentioned a flight risk. So basically a key player at the company leaving, deciding they are done and the company tanking, you know, usually that being founder owner, um, you've mentioned founders risk, what, what is founders risk? I just made that word up. So maybe that's the unique one because it doesn't make any sense. You know, founders risk would be, it's kinda the same thing, right? So a company's success is LTD because it's, it's inherent in the founders sitting in their seats. And the minute that founder leaves that, that vehicle, that business no longer generates value, that all those involved. That's not, that's not just a bad thing for the shareholder, right? Who is typically, is the founder in that case, you know, suddenly their equity in the company no longer produces a return. All right. That's a bad deal for the stocks. It's also a bad deal for all those involved in the company, Right? All the key players. And typically that's like, and there's probably a word for it. A lot of founders, they feel guilt around. They can kinda, that's probably the one thing that pushes them the hardest is like, they see that they are the cap for the bottleneck to their company, developing, provide more opportunities for their people to develop these key people have this tremendous potential and potential and opportunity. But your company is, it's got a lot of great things, which is why they stick around but it's not quite allowing them to realize their full potential and as a leader, as a founder, uh sometimes that can be the biggest pain point of, gosh, how do I get beyond this comfort zone? Sure. Do you, do you see any other um do you see any other risks? I guess that that you think maybe are oftentimes overlooked by painting company owners and I think those are was pretty well encapsulated, but I figured it out, I mean there's the classic yeah, it's kind of who I think growth has a lot of risk to it. And are you planning smartly for growth operations, yep, in terms of well operations. So key roles operations. How deep is your bench? Right. How stable is the company put a lot of times, it's, how deep is the bench, How well poised for growth? Um do you have good financial stability to have mechanisms in place to fund and finance the growth and you have your A B and C. Contingency plans locked in to kind of pivot as you need to, to make sure you still hit the target, but in a different way. Um there's a lot of different risks that can happen when you're growing and sometimes sometimes growth and success or what puts companies out of business. And we've certainly seen that before where completely so successful, that they suddenly enter into a new paradigm of how business needs to be run and they're not used to that yet. And so what that what got them to that point suddenly is not just a hindrance, but ends up, you know, destroying their company. Sure, Yeah. And I think so, one of my, one of what I view my roles in as running this podcast is kind of trying to, to summarize things at times and you use, uh, you speak very differently from every other person that I've had on the podcast. So I just want to, I want to note that that, I mean, you're really coming at this from an investor standpoint. You know, you're approaching at all these, all these risks. You're talking about stakeholders, you're talking about um, the different um, risks to equity, right? And viewing it as, I mean, who've used a painting company ownership as equity? It is equity, though, right. If you think about it as an investor and you think about in business, if you own your company and you run it, you own equity. And so I I just, there's an important paradigm shift sort of here in terms of how most people think about their businesses and how you're talking about them, that, that I think it's important to recognize because you're talking from a different level now, you're talking from a 10, 20 plus million dollar level and, and uh, that's important. That's what's possible when you start to enter that this mindset in these partnerships and this kind of opportunity revenue certainly allows the infrastructure for stability. There's no, there's no kind of lie to that. Um, there's also, there's kind of a difference between assets, stability and professionalization that will make sure I voice because you can be a small company and be unprofessional. You can also be a small company and be professional. And that way of professionalization should hit hall stratus of business sizes and I think that's gonna be really important. I think where it's going to drive from and really originate and really propagate from, are going to be those larger companies that are driven by the equity value of their business, right? And that's what drives world class net promoter scores. That's what drives, you know, having successful businesses that companies that people want to enter into that industry, that's gonna help drive ensuring that, you know, labor is treated well because you need something to fund, You need someone to do the work to fund the growth. Um, I think all those three elements are low points in this industry. If you're going to look at the options available in the economy to different people right? There probably probably bad at all three of those things. Um, and all three of those can be improved, not just in large companies, but also in smaller businesses as well. So Jason, I'm not positive when this podcast episode is going to be released, but you do have an event that I want to touch on as well dump. Okay, so the camp is just a gathering of Minnesota painters. Uh, we do that once a quarter in, in kind of around the twin cities area. So today is the 31st of March, we're doing our cue to kick off camp and uh, so that's happening today. So definitely before you do that. But if you live in Minnesota, you're a painting contractor. Just search for gathering of Minnesota painters. I think it's mn painters. That's how it's spelt on facebook. We have a little group where we do logistics, that's a cool thing and then stay posted on the pc a website. The website is actually pc a paint ed for events coming up this year. There's a little bit of a teaser that we may be hosting an event in Minneapolis this summer. Maybe not going to release anything, but I've heard some whispers and I've heard some whispers that's gonna be a real banger as the kids call it. Yeah, I love it. You have Jason, you want to have anything else that you wanna share before we wrap up? No man, you did a great job. This is a fun podcast. Um, any other time you want to have me on. This is a blast. So that's it. Yeah, well appreciate you appreciate you having your own man. It was amazing and I hope that that some ambitious painting company owners who really want to grow and help other people grow well. We'll think about reaching out to you. Cool, cool, awesome. Thanks man. Thanks. If you want to learn more about the topics we discussed in this podcast and how you can use them to grow your painting business, visit painter marketing pros dot com forward slash podcast for free training as well as the ability to schedule a personalized strategy session for your painting company. Again that you are l is painter marketing pros dot com forward slash podcast. Hey, they're painting company owners. If you enjoyed today's episode, make sure you go ahead and hit that subscribe button, Give us your feedback. Let us know how we did. And also if you're interested in taking your painting business to the next level, make sure you visit the Painter Marketing Pros website at PainterMarketingPros.com to learn more about our services. You can also reach out to me directly by emailing me at Brandon@PainterMarketingPros.com and I can give you personalized advice on growing your painting business until next time. Keep growing.